Need to stop going in circles on this, if this forum is a way out then I am pleading for help

[SeanS]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is an unconscious assumption born of ignorance, conditioning and maybe survival instincts, not some truth about life or even something necessary past a certain point. An addiction to conceptualization and identification with thoughts keeps us trapped in that illusion for life, but there HAS to be a way out, right?

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel like any answer I give will be 'tainted' by my preconceptions but maybe that's the point. I just want the truth, I want to experience it rather than think about it and believe it and obsess over it. My beliefs about reality, myself, and the world have disintegrated so thoroughly in the past few years but STILL there's this gap I can't seem to cross. I keep looking for answers, 'gates', whatever I can find, but even ones that SEEM usable end up being ruined by rampant conceptualizing, trying to 'understand' rather than do the work, or it feels like the people there end up trapped in some other, more complex belief system.
It HAS to be simpler, more direct than that. It can't possibly be about some gods or spirits or 50 years of meditation practice or communities or drugs or whatever else gets peddled - more and more complexity, more food for the mind. Maybe some of these CAN lead to whatever is on the other side of this, but it seems too circuitous. Walking 40,000km to end up where you already are.

So in short again I'm hoping this forum can lead to that direct exploration, something to push me over the edge already when I keep hesitating or treading water, something to cut through all the bullshit. It feels so close but even writing that feels wrong, it can't be about distance or time.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Expecting a lot of repetition in questions that lock the mind away from conceptualizing, returning to direct experience over and over.
Maybe a guide that can point out all of my subconscious defenses, fixations, blind spots and be brutally direct, not letting me escape into more thoughts. Someone that sees this clearly and can lead me away from any pitfalls or pointless loops, rather than having 'the blind lead the blind'.
I expect some uncomfortable emotions and sensations to come up as they have in meditation or inquiry at times, but perhaps also some utterly unexplainable distortions in perception, spaciousness, and awe, if it's anything like what seemed to be working before.
Also expect very strong fear or a feeling of utter helplessness to kick in at some point but maybe not this time, doesn't really matter. Any negative emotion or thought that comes up doesn't particularly worry me anymore, just temporary obstacles.
I HOPE to do absolutely anything and everything a genuine guide will ask of me, and to let any resistance or confusion that comes up be part of the inquiry as well.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
In short - 4 years of Meditation and eastern philosophies research, and in the past 2 years Vipassana, Self-inquiry, and Non-duality.

Started with basic meditation and eastern philosophies ~4 years ago as part of 'self-help attempts', and had a near-lifetime of suffering fade to almost nothing in a SHOCKINGLY short amount of time. Already all my previous beliefs about myself and life seemed laughable, considering that ALL beliefs aren't quite right wasn't a big step. I was still deeply skeptical in anything spiritual or religious though.

After practicing alone and researching more for a few years, read a bit about non-duality, awakening and self-inquiry with interest but a lot of doubt. Then tried a Vipassana retreat where for the first time my rigid perception of reality shifted in a heartbeat, in multiple ways.
While inquiring afterwards, for a brief moment it felt like there wasn't anyone "in here". But the teachers there warned me to stay away from any "unbalanced experience" and contributed to that sudden spike of fear that told me it's dangerous. Despite that moment feeling so *right* and wanting it so deeply at the time, it still feels like I ran away from it. Now all of this is just another story holding the idea of Self up I suppose.

Kept inquiring but never steadily enough. Went on more vipassana retreats since equanimity and samadhi do seem to help inquiry somewhat, and teachings on Emptiness or Anatta felt in the right direction at least.
Kept reading and seeing more about non-duality, had more times where it felt shockingly 'close', and times where the mind quieted down and things felt very open, plus some other weird meditative states... Strong energy surges and blockages in the body too if any of that matters.
I don't adhere to any religion or specific path but try to find whatever useful principles I can from any that I encounter. I'm open to at least trying anything that's not harmful to others somehow.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Windaway]

Dear SeanS,

(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. It’s great to see you here!
My name is David, and I’ll be glad to assist in exploring your experience.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.

What time zone are you in?

I’m in the indochina time —GMT +7

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

[SeanS]

What time zone are you in?

Thank you David! You can call me Sean.
I'm in GMT+2, I'm excited to start and will do my best to answer daily.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

I appreciate your enthusiasm and excitement. These qualities will support your exploration process. Let’s begin with this:

For this exploration, read one phrase at a time. For each phrase, follow this procedure:

1 - Read the statement, then close your eyes.
2 - Repeat the statement aloud (or in your mind) three times.
3 -Then let go of thought.
4 - Notice your body's reaction.
5 - Stay in that space as long as it feels right.
6 - Move to the next prase.

Tip: It's not about how long you can explore. Whether it's one minute or two hours, it really does not matter. What matters is the quality of your observation and your curiosity. Remember, more is not always better.


Here are the phrases:

* HERE is the only place in space that I experience.



* NOW is the only moment in time that I experience.



* What is it that I am seeking that is not here and now?



* What is it that is here and now that I don't want?




Write down your insights (or the absence of them) and describe your sensations during this exploration.

[SeanS]

* HERE is the only place in space that I experience.

Letting go of thoughts is still difficult. Get swept up, and as soon as it’s noticed as a thought it’s “over”, meaningless, falls off, but then get swept up again.

Body feels like warmth rising from chest to throat, slight burn in the throat, and tension building behind eyebrows. But those are common, unsure if related.

Felt hard to connect with this one, maybe also because it’s the start. But it's like I can 'believe' it to be right, but not quite feel it directly. Felt like that “absence of insights”, something that didn’t click.

* NOW is the only moment in time that I experience.

At first felt some resistance, both in thoughts and slightly in the body. Time still feels so tangible and real outside of meditation, and sometimes in. “Maybe I’ll try this again later today”… and as soon as that conflicting line of thought was noticed and dropped there was a slight change.

Body felt lighter, head hanging back a bit. Sensations spreading through the right side of the body. Some tension too but not unpleasant.

* What is it that I am seeking that is not here and now?

This one felt very right. Whole body slowly softening and relaxing, pleasant sensations moving upwards. It’s like I keep forgetting this over and over, swept up in thoughts.

Maybe it’s still just a belief that gets overturned regularly, but it felt so obvious that there’s nothing to seek outside of here and now, yet that automatic ‘seeking’ and looking through past / future thoughts keeps coming back. Even now. So sticky.

* What is it that is here and now that I don't want?

Thoughts felt much more sticky and ‘real’ with this one at first, compared to last one. “Filters. Ignorance.” As soon as those were seen as just thoughts, beliefs, concepts, another spreading feeling of relaxation in the body, expansiveness.

Resistant thoughts still come up with this question though, very quickly and easily. but when they’re dropped it feels like I can’t really find anything, anything that shouldn’t be here outside the perspective of transient thoughts.

There’s still doubt arising though. “What if I’m too attached to thoughts for this? What if the fact that I kept getting dragged off into thinking, briefly believing thoughts, means I’m not ready?”
Then the thought fades too.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,
Great, we have got a lot of valuable information with this exploration.

At first felt some resistance, both in thoughts and slightly in the body. Time still feels so tangible and real outside of meditation, and sometimes in. “Maybe I’ll try this again later today”… and as soon as that conflicting line of thought was noticed and dropped there was a slight change.

Exactly! What is essential is noticing. Noticing what a thought, actually, is. What has clearly happened. Don’t try to drop the thoughts. Let the act of noticing do the work for you.

Maybe it’s still just a belief that gets overturned regularly, but it felt so obvious that there’s nothing to seek outside of here and now, yet that automatic ‘seeking’ and looking through past / future thoughts keeps coming back. Even now. So sticky.

That is perfect. You are noticing this “automatism of seeking”.

Thoughts felt much more sticky and ‘real’ with this one at first, compared to last one. “Filters. Ignorance.” As soon as those were seen as just thoughts, beliefs, concepts, another spreading feeling of relaxation in the body, expansiveness.

What you wrote is the process of noticing. Perfect. As you are in this “place” of noticing, the body relax. Isn’t that fascinating?

There’s still doubt arising though. “What if I’m too attached to thoughts for this? What if the fact that I kept getting dragged off into thinking, briefly believing thoughts, means I’m not ready?”
Then the thought fades too.

See clearly that you noticed thoughts arising and you noticed them fade away. You know this “place” of noticing.

Let’s keep diving into the rabbit hole with this exploration:

Observing thoughts

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Let me know how it went for you.

[SeanS]

Let me know how it went for you.

**Don’t try to drop the thoughts. Let the act of noticing do the work for you.**

Thank you, this helps. Feels like so much pointless, counterproductive, automatic effort on pushing and pulling thoughts sometimes when in retrospect it seems obvious that it isn’t needed. Keep forgetting it.

**Where are they coming from and going to?**

It doesn’t exactly feel like there’s a coming and going. There’s a weird dissonance in how a thought is ‘experienced’ from inside it, then how flat and immaterial it feels the moment it’s noticed as a thought.
Feels almost retroactive. Like looking for the beginning of a thought doesn’t work, because the ‘act’ of observation warps it, makes something that seemed alive moments ago look like a cardboard cutout. So only after observation and anticipation ‘falters’ a thought is noticed only in hindsight.

**Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?**

In my immediate experience, it still somehow feels like I can ‘choose’ what to think about, or ‘force’ a thought and speak it inwardly rather than just hear it. As soon as that is seen as a thought that I didn’t “choose to choose”, it makes no sense, seems impossible. Nothing was “done” to make thoughts appear besides thoughts appearing.

**Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?**

No. Somehow that feels obvious but also like a contradiction to the other beliefs?

**Can you predict your next thought?**

No, that would be the thought

**Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?**

No. Still somehow feels like “I” have a little influence there, but that influence is another thought that feels like it's 'pointing a direction' for the next thoughts... As soon as it's seen as a thought, it wasn't "me". Still feels like I can "do it" somehow though.

**Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?**

No, and feels like there’s even less influence here, if any at all.

**Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?**

No. Maybe still feels like I can point in a direction but not exactly choose.
There’s still this weird disconnect between “heard” thoughts and “spoken” thoughts if that makes sense. Feels more willful and controlled when ‘speaking’ thoughts, but even then, can’t really choose what the choice was…

**Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?**

No. Something about this question feels weird. Like thoughts fundamentally do not EXIST like that, like attempting to prevent a thought would be what creates it. Totally nonexistent and uninteractable before they arise, and totally flat and substance-less once they are noticed as thoughts. But while they are there, so often get swept up in them, no prevention possible.

Only have few memories of not feeling so swept up while thoughts still occurred, from meditation - but can’t recreate it in direct experience now, not with “natural” feeling thoughts - only when it feels like I’m ‘FORCING’ a thought, speaking it inwardly rather than hearing it suddenly, it's not as consuming. But that’s not the same somehow. Not sure why.

**It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?**

I’m not sure. It still feels like there can be a long chain of thoughts with some connection to each other, but when observing them more actively they fall apart too quickly for that?

I’m not even really sure how there could BE a border or boundary between thoughts, and yet the fact that they are somewhat distinct words and pictures makes it feel like there are borders, not seamlessly continuous, not just ‘one thought’ but many and sequential... Can’t find it besides in gaps in thinking from noticing.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

Thank you for you answers and authenticity. This quality of looking will take you a long way on this pathless path.


You seem to see clearly what a thought is:

….then how flat and immaterial it feels the moment it’s noticed as a thought.

Totally nonexistent and uninteractable before they arise, and totally flat and substance-less once they are noticed as thoughts.

You seem to see clearly how thoughts appear in your experience:

Nothing was “done” to make thoughts appear besides thoughts appearing.

You seem to see clearly that resistance is futile with thought:

Feels like so much pointless, counterproductive, automatic effort on pushing and pulling thoughts sometimes when in retrospect it seems obvious that it isn’t needed.

…like attempting to prevent a thought would be what creates it.

And you seem to see clearly how to look to discern the deception of thought. You know how to look at thought.

So I don’t not understand what the big deal you have with thought?


The issue you're facing seems to be related to the 'swept up' concept you keep mentioning.

But while they are there, so often get swept up in them, no prevention possible.

When you use the worlds: “swept up” what do you mean?
Talk to me about this “swept up”.

Some clarification:
You use the word 'feel' frequently in your responses. It seems to me that you are using it mainly as a synonym for thinking.
For the sake of clarity, let's agree that the word 'feel' is exclusively related to emotion, sensation, and perception. Therefore, please use this word only in those contexts to ensure clarity.

To answer your questions:

Somehow that feels obvious but also like a contradiction to the other beliefs?

Don’t worry about contradiction or beliefs. LOOK at what is HERE.
When you have an insight or revelation they will always “feel obvious”. Because you have LOOKED in your Direct Experience and confirm that this is how it is.

There is not contradiction between what you have seen as a fact and a belief.
There is a contradiction between beliefs and beliefs. So contradiction is simply beliefs.

Don’t thing analizing or overthing about contradiction.
When you see a contradiction. LOOK ,right HERE, right NOW and check again.
Again. Again and again. Until contradiction vanish.
If it comes back. And it will come back. What do you do?
LOOK, right HERE, right NOW.

I’m not sure. It still feels like there can be a long chain of thoughts with some connection to each other, but when observing them more actively they fall apart too quickly for that?

I have no idea.
If there is an impulse in you to find the answer of this question. All you have to do is LOOk at your experience and find out.

[SeanS]

So I don’t not understand what the big deal you have with thought?

I don’t know if it is a big deal. Thoughts seem pretty harmless now, but I guess it was just an assumption that I should learn to not be as habitually lost in thought as I still often am, or should be able to see them while they are present in the same way they are seen in retrospect (which might just be thinking memories of thoughts?)… basically to not identify with them again and again. Maybe a belief I carried into this practice.

When you use the worlds: “swept up” what do you mean?
Talk to me about this “swept up”.

Swept up, lost in thought, identified, no longer noticing thoughts ARE thoughts. It seems very odd to have such a contrasting view of thoughts while thinking, and while outside of thoughts, or thinking ABOUT thoughts, or noticing the flatness of thoughts (again, “in retrospect”)

While thinking, it all seems like it always was before looking into this (besides that thoughts are almost never seen as a threat / problem anymore) - “I’m” the one thinking, “I’m” in control, every thought is believed in and seen as true or meaningful, thinking nonstop seems somewhat comfortable and natural - but immediately after noticing it’s a thought, it all seems different, as mentioned before.
I use the word “seem” but I’m not actually sure what to call it - the relationship with thought goes from “Me” to “Other”. Is that shift in perspective just a thought / belief too?

Sometimes there’s a slight aversive feeling there too, like I’ve been “tricked” again. Sounds needlessly adversarial as I write this down.

let's agree that the word 'feel' is exclusively related to emotion, sensation, and perception.

Right, sorry. I notice that I also often use “feel, believe, think” interchangeably when there are seemingly conflicting beliefs, or beliefs based on ‘logic’ / memories that conflict with my interpretation of direct experience. I’ll try to differentiate and focus on the direct experience.

There is not contradiction between what you have seen as a fact and a belief.
There is a contradiction between beliefs and beliefs. So contradiction is simply beliefs.

Ohh! Beautiful. Every contradiction, conflict or confusion as just a sign to look right here and now. Thank you.

If there is an impulse in you to find the answer of this question. All you have to do is LOOk at your experience and find out.

Sitting with this some more:

• Many thoughts look utterly random, jumbles of sounds or words, disconnected, and PASSIVE. No agency or doership. No sequence or relation.

• Some thoughts look temporarily coherent, seem ACTIVE and “me” while in thought but noticed as passive appearances outside my control afterwards.
  I believed these thoughts refer to a previous thought or experience, follow some sequence, but they obviously also just appear without interaction, from nothing, not created by, following, or using anything - just like any other thought.

• The thoughts that seemed ‘forced’ and more willful before now look like just echoes of thoughts that already passively appeared, and are being repeated more prominently. There is no “I” in experience that chose to “speak” those specific thoughts. The logic / order behind why they are repeated is another thought or belief, no sequence.
  (Unrelated but they still feel like a slightly different experience of thought! The body reacts stronger, in the throat, nose and stomach. There’s a “force” to those thoughts, more tangible than others, like between thought and speech. It also feels more like the thoughts / narration while reading. Maybe still some more identification too.)

• The body sensations were very strong and chaotic during all of this and there was a lot of curiosity, fascination, but also some worry? There were some sticky beliefs about the process, doubt / awe at the simplicity and speed of this. I still don’t know if any of this will ‘stick’ unless I look for it in experience again and again, “make sure” - and if that even matters? Just thoughts

IN SHORT - It seems like all thoughts appear from nothing, nowhere, do not follow each other. They can reflect memories or experience but there is no logical sequence or a “passing” of content from one to the other, no chain.

Sorry if this is too much writing, I can try cutting things down to direct experience and relevant insights only (unless prompted for beliefs / elaboration) if it’s preferred!

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

Here is my feedback:

I don’t know if it is a big deal. Thoughts seem pretty harmless now, but I guess it was just an assumption that I should learn to not be as habitually lost in thought as I still often am, or should be able to see them while they are present in the same way they are seen in retrospect (which might just be thinking memories of thoughts?)… basically to not identify with them again and again. Maybe a belief I carried into this practice.

When you look at thought you are not lost in them.

There is nothing seen retrospectively. When you look, you look here and now. There is no looking in the past. There ONLY looking a thought here and now.

While thinking, it all seems like it always was before looking into this (besides that thoughts are almost never seen as a threat / problem anymore) - “I’m” the one thinking, “I’m” in control, every thought is believed in and seen as true or meaningful, thinking nonstop seems somewhat comfortable and natural - but immediately after noticing it’s a thought, it all seems different, as mentioned before.
I use the word “seem” but I’m not actually sure what to call it - the relationship with thought goes from “Me” to “Other”. Is that shift in perspective just a thought / belief too?

Exactly!
After a decade or more of identifying with thought it seems to be the normal, natural and comfortable to do so. When you start to see that the nature of thought and they are seen as “other” there is a shift. The shift is not an amazing event. It is simply realizing the obvious. Come back to normal.
This shift in perspective is not a thought, it’s not even an “event”. But there is no need to understand or think too much about that.
Simply keep looking, stay in that place of noticing. Let your awareness dive deep and deeper into this shift.

What you see does not change.
Is the way you see that change.

Sometimes there’s a slight aversive feeling there too, like I’ve been “tricked” again. Sounds needlessly adversarial as I write this down.

Thought are the master in deception. Thoughts are like sirens that sing to capture your attention with the intention of hijacking your boat.
Trust the process keep looking. Everything is going well. We will deal with sensations, emotions and feelings down the path.

IN SHORT - It seems like all thoughts appear from nothing, nowhere, do not follow each other. They can reflect memories or experience but there is no logical sequence or a “passing” of content from one to the other, no chain.

I see that you arrived at your own conclusion about this question. Now is time to stop believe other and start trusting you direct experience.
Get used to it.

Sorry if this is too much writing, I can try cutting things down to direct experience and relevant insights only (unless prompted for beliefs / elaboration) if it’s preferred!

This is your process. Everything you want to share is useful information and is welcome.

Proposition:

I understand that you're experiencing a shift in perception. Before switching gears, perhaps it's a good moment to let this shift sink in?
I propose that you take the time you need or want to enjoy and explore this new perspective in your day-to-day life. We can take time to explore this noticing.
Does that feel right for you, or do you feel ready to go deeper into the rabbit hole?
Let me know what is right for you.
Either way is good for me.

[SeanS]

When you look at thought you are not lost in them.
…
What you see does not change.
Is the way you see that change.

I want to really thank you again. The way your pointers like these instantly smooth out any knots and clarify things is incredibly helpful and simplifying, but also the trust in letting me explore direct experience when an answer is available is very empowering.

I propose that you take the time you need or want to enjoy and explore this new perspective in your day-to-day life. We can take time to explore this noticing.

Last session was a surprise, but as you’ve said it now seems obvious, normal, natural. Not particularly new or special - just a few beliefs that were never pointed out or confirmed before. Day-to-day life is unaffected. Meditation / noticing thoughts might be slightly different.

I tried sitting and looking for the belief about sequence again. It was stickier, “realer” when thinking about music, more ‘sequential’, but even then it’s obviously another thought when back to noticing. There’s still uncertainty about ‘boundaries’ between thoughts - a more primary belief that I believe is more complicated to unravel. Maybe that’s self-fulfilling though.

I’d like to continue whenever you are able! Feeling calm yet excited for more.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

To be sure we don’t leave any blind spot behind. Let’s clarify a little bit more the thought phenomenon.

Exploration:
Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content
of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:

(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”

(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour
and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a
handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?

Can you pour tea into it?

Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?

Is there an appearing mental image?

Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images,
their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not
‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Feedback:

I want to really thank you again. The way your pointers like these instantly smooth out any knots and clarify things is incredibly helpful and simplifying, but also the trust in letting me explore direct experience when an answer is available is very empowering.

Thank you for the feedback.

[SeanS]

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

Yes, there is a clear mental image. Again the idea initially came up that "The image can change / be interacted with according to arising thoughts", but no, there is obviously no sequence or connection to it, just more mental imagery arising.

So no, can't grasp or interact with the image, there is no real cup. Just an image. The mind can produce other images that 'appear as if there is grasping or interaction' but those are also just images. Flat, substanceless, intangible.

The content is not real, no more than as an appearing image, no more than a projection on a screen is real.

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images,
their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not
‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Yes, in that sense all mental images are equal, all the same presence of thought, the content is equally immaterial.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

You seem to see cleary now.
With that clarity, please answer this question:

• Who are you?

[SeanS]

• Who are you?

Sat with this for a while, and in movement too. Still not finding the answer in direct experience.

Thoughts still arise, and the most prevalent belief at first was “I don’t know”, which lead to the belief “I can’t figure this out yet, something is missing”. When those were seen as just thoughts the senses felt more open and relaxed. Random thoughts (with no answers) still distract frequently and sensations still shifting, but attention keeps going back to noticing, and noticing the noticing itself. Felt like a backwards loop in attention.

Do I just keep looking? Looking for the looker or the "I" that is looking? Any 'search' or movement elsewhere or uncertainty makes no sense, if there's always the I searching, I moving, I being uncertain. Always here and now.