I humbly seek a Guide

[mariposa33]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of no-self is that the person that I identify as is not the guiding force behind my actions, but rather the armor I use to shield myself from the incomprehensible concept of not existing. I use my "self" to feel a sense of control over the world around me and the stories become the crutches that keep me clinging to existing.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am here at the prompt of my mentor and a group that I am working with, engaging in no self-work. Everyone in the group has been guided but myself, and we feel it is something that would be of great value for me to experience and understand. I was present when my partner was guided and I found it unsettling, but I've had more time to come to understand the concept of it but I still "very much exist". I have come to utilize no-self as a practice more than a concept.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help me gain clarity and a better understanding of what no self means. Kind of a "so I don't exist, now what...?" kind of vibe. I want to be able to meaningfully contribute to the group I am working with and the journey we are on together. I want to help facilitate others who are looking to go beyond themselves.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done bursts of meditation practices, journaling, and healing modalities. I have participated in sweats, and an Aya ceremony and I smudge regularly. I try to have a regular yoga nidra practice and focused breathing.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Elad]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of no-self is that the person that I identify as is not the guiding force behind my actions, but rather the armor I use to shield myself from the incomprehensible concept of not existing. I use my "self" to feel a sense of control over the world around me and the stories become the crutches that keep me clinging to existing.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am here at the prompt of my mentor and a group that I am working with, engaging in no self-work. Everyone in the group has been guided but myself, and we feel it is something that would be of great value for me to experience and understand. I was present when my partner was guided and I found it unsettling, but I've had more time to come to understand the concept of it but I still "very much exist". I have come to utilize no-self as a practice more than a concept.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help me gain clarity and a better understanding of what no self means. Kind of a "so I don't exist, now what...?" kind of vibe. I want to be able to meaningfully contribute to the group I am working with and the journey we are on together. I want to help facilitate others who are looking to go beyond themselves.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done bursts of meditation practices, journaling, and healing modalities. I have participated in sweats, and an Aya ceremony and I smudge regularly. I try to have a regular yoga nidra practice and focused breathing.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

Hello, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions, if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

Also I on a note of your concerns "so I don't exist, so what?": These kind of questions come when we entertain the idea of no self AS an idea or even a practice, and what we are for here - if you want - is not that but for direct experience. The direct experience of no separate self does not negate having a self in the conventional sense (having memories, a story of your life, preferences, hobbies, values, goals, dreams, feelings). It is beyond ideas of self and no-self. It is about experiencing directly that there is no separation in direct experience. Sometimes these practices and thoughts are used as ideas for self denial, self repression, self neglect and so forth. This is mixing up the level of psychology and the level direct experience and is cruel and unskilful, even if the intention is often good. So if we move forward it will be important that this is not about denying your wishes, feelings, preferences, personality, dreams, etc. This is about seeing beyond that and at the same time living normal life as loving and whole as possible.

What may I call you?

Warmly,
Elad

[mariposa33]

Hello Elad, you may call me Jesska. Thank you for your response and thoughtful questions.

1. Okay. When you say direct experience, my understanding is that these will be objective rather than subjective. Is this correct?

2. I am prepared to offer these ingredients!

3. Read and understood.


4. I apologize for already not being able to meet this agreement. While I am motivated to focus on this process, I am not able to commit to a daily response. I am in school full-time with two young kids, so I was hoping for 2-3/week responses. I understand if this does not work for you and I appreciate you bringing it up and honoring both of our needs.

Thank you for sharing that final note. I am not looking to deny my wishes, etc.. but to experience no separate self and live life as loving and whole as possible.

Warmly,
Jesska

[Elad]

Hello Elad, you may call me Jesska. Thank you for your response and thoughtful questions.

1. Okay. When you say direct experience, my understanding is that these will be objective rather than subjective. Is this correct?

2. I am prepared to offer these ingredients!

3. Read and understood.


4. I apologize for already not being able to meet this agreement. While I am motivated to focus on this process, I am not able to commit to a daily response. I am in school full-time with two young kids, so I was hoping for 2-3/week responses. I understand if this does not work for you and I appreciate you bringing it up and honoring both of our needs.

Thank you for sharing that final note. I am not looking to deny my wishes, etc.. but to experience no separate self and live life as loving and whole as possible.

Warmly,
Jesska

Hi Jeeska, as long as you are sincerely motivated to work together as best you can for this, in the context of your life, it's good with me. It's not essentially about if it is every day, it is about the attitude.

Regarding direct experience, it does not exactly mean neither subjective nor objective. Will send something more about it later today.

Your motivation to do this sounds healthy with me, so lets take off and we will discover how it is. More soon.

[Elad]

So for this work to be fruitful we need to differentiate direct experience from beliefs. All work here is about attending to direct experience. Direct experience is the five senses (sight, sound, sensation, smell, taste) plus activity of thought (but not what the thoughts say, that is belief). So if I ask what colors your socks are you can speculate and maybe answer from memory (thought content, not direct experience) or you can look and tell me from sight/direct experience.

Direct experience cannot be defined as inherently objective - it's not "external objects". Nor can it be defined as inherently subjective, i.e. clearly "the experience of someone separate". We might well get more to that later, but for now it is the first 4 lines in this message that are most important. Focus on them.

Please let me know if this differentiation between direct experience and beliefs is clear or if there are questions about that.

[mariposa33]

So for this work to be fruitful we need to differentiate direct experience from beliefs. All work here is about attending to direct experience. Direct experience is the five senses (sight, sound, sensation, smell, taste) plus activity of thought (but not what the thoughts say, that is belief). So if I ask what colors your socks are you can speculate and maybe answer from memory (thought content, not direct experience) or you can look and tell me from sight/direct experience.

Direct experience cannot be defined as inherently objective - it's not "external objects". Nor can it be defined as inherently subjective, i.e. clearly "the experience of someone separate". We might well get more to that later, but for now it is the first 4 lines in this message that are most important. Focus on them.

Please let me know if this differentiation between direct experience and beliefs is clear or if there are questions about that.

The differentiation is clear! I will focus on direct experience when engaging with the exercises.

[Elad]

So for this work to be fruitful we need to differentiate direct experience from beliefs. All work here is about attending to direct experience. Direct experience is the five senses (sight, sound, sensation, smell, taste) plus activity of thought (but not what the thoughts say, that is belief). So if I ask what colors your socks are you can speculate and maybe answer from memory (thought content, not direct experience) or you can look and tell me from sight/direct experience.

Direct experience cannot be defined as inherently objective - it's not "external objects". Nor can it be defined as inherently subjective, i.e. clearly "the experience of someone separate". We might well get more to that later, but for now it is the first 4 lines in this message that are most important. Focus on them.

Please let me know if this differentiation between direct experience and beliefs is clear or if there are questions about that.

The differentiation is clear! I will focus on direct experience when engaging with the exercises.

Great! Now please read the following sentence, and then just write to me whatever comes in reaction. Don't censor, don't try to get it right, it doesn't even matter if you write things you later see you don't agree with. It's all about just writing, free flow, just seeing what comes up, what happens... So here is the sentence:

"there is no separate self, there is no one in control of anything, and there never has been"

Go!

[mariposa33]

So for this work to be fruitful we need to differentiate direct experience from beliefs. All work here is about attending to direct experience. Direct experience is the five senses (sight, sound, sensation, smell, taste) plus activity of thought (but not what the thoughts say, that is belief). So if I ask what colors your socks are you can speculate and maybe answer from memory (thought content, not direct experience) or you can look and tell me from sight/direct experience.

Direct experience cannot be defined as inherently objective - it's not "external objects". Nor can it be defined as inherently subjective, i.e. clearly "the experience of someone separate". We might well get more to that later, but for now it is the first 4 lines in this message that are most important. Focus on them.

Please let me know if this differentiation between direct experience and beliefs is clear or if there are questions about that.

The differentiation is clear! I will focus on direct experience when engaging with the exercises.

Great! Now please read the following sentence, and then just write to me whatever comes in reaction. Don't censor, don't try to get it right, it doesn't even matter if you write things you later see you don't agree with. It's all about just writing, free flow, just seeing what comes up, what happens... So here is the sentence:

"there is no separate self, there is no one in control of anything, and there never has been"

Go!

The first thing that came to mind was “thank goodness” and then I notice relaxation in my shoulders and chest. Like a long exhale. All sense of urgency is dissipated.

[Elad]

Lovely! Now please do the same, with the following sentence, again no censoring no holding back keep it pouring out until there is no more. The sentence:

"It is now directly seen, realized, beyond any doubt, that there is no self, no controller or chooser responsible for actions. and how things go, there never ever was, never ever will be".

Go!

[mariposa33]

Lovely! Now please do the same, with the following sentence, again no censoring no holding back keep it pouring out until there is no more. The sentence:

"It is now directly seen, realized, beyond any doubt, that there is no self, no controller or chooser responsible for actions. and how things go, there never ever was, never ever will be".

Go!

Hi Elad, Thanks for your patience. My partner is travelling this week so I've been solo with my kiddos. Upon reading the provided sentence I am again washed with a sense of relief. Urgency dissipates, and my entire body relaxes. My attachment to control, result, and opportunity is released and I feel a wave of respite and contentment. There is no resistance or doubt in my physical body and even the thoughts that come to mind are agreeable.

[Elad]

Lovely! Now please do the same, with the following sentence, again no censoring no holding back keep it pouring out until there is no more. The sentence:

"It is now directly seen, realized, beyond any doubt, that there is no self, no controller or chooser responsible for actions. and how things go, there never ever was, never ever will be".

Go!

Hi Elad, Thanks for your patience. My partner is travelling this week so I've been solo with my kiddos. Upon reading the provided sentence I am again washed with a sense of relief. Urgency dissipates, and my entire body relaxes. My attachment to control, result, and opportunity is released and I feel a wave of respite and contentment. There is no resistance or doubt in my physical body and even the thoughts that come to mind are agreeable.

Hi Jesska! Lovely 💚

Let's check some things.

Can you control thoughts?
Can you control sensations and feelings?
Can you control attention?
Can you control movement?
Can you control choice?

Don't start thinking about this and analyzing it, it will leave you in the level of thoughts and philosophy rather then direct experience. Rather, look very closely in real time at a thought, a movement, a choice, an attention shift, etc. and look very closely in direct experience. Where does it come from? What is controlling it?

Warmly,
Elad

[mariposa33]

Lovely! Now please do the same, with the following sentence, again no censoring no holding back keep it pouring out until there is no more. The sentence:

"It is now directly seen, realized, beyond any doubt, that there is no self, no controller or chooser responsible for actions. and how things go, there never ever was, never ever will be".

Go!

Hi Elad, Thanks for your patience. My partner is travelling this week so I've been solo with my kiddos. Upon reading the provided sentence I am again washed with a sense of relief. Urgency dissipates, and my entire body relaxes. My attachment to control, result, and opportunity is released and I feel a wave of respite and contentment. There is no resistance or doubt in my physical body and even the thoughts that come to mind are agreeable.

Hi Jesska! Lovely 💚

Let's check some things.

Can you control thoughts?
Can you control sensations and feelings?
Can you control attention?
Can you control movement?
Can you control choice?

Don't start thinking about this and analyzing it, it will leave you in the level of thoughts and philosophy rather then direct experience. Rather, look very closely in real time at a thought, a movement, a choice, an attention shift, etc. and look very closely in direct experience. Where does it come from? What is controlling it?

Warmly,
Elad

Hello Elad!

No, I can't control any of those things. They come up and go where they may whether they are noticed or not. I can attach thoughts and labels to them, but they are not something that can be controlled. Thoughts seem to come from somewhere behind my eyes/forehead, sensations blossom throughout the body and become feelings based on the thoughts I have about them. The body operates the way it does, with no input or control from me - movement simply is. Choice makes me pause, but only because I *want* control over my choices. There is nothing that controls it, it simply is.

[Elad]

Hi Jesska, lovely, lots of clarity.

1) If you look closely, you will find that you cannot find any particular place where thoughts come from or go to. Can you verify that? Look closer, can you find any location thoughts come from, or are in, or a time frame they move within? Can any of that be found looking closely in direct experience?

2) What does "I" refer to? Does it refer to "a separate unchanging self"?

3) Is there a separate self? Is there any doubt? Is anything unclear?

[mariposa33]

Hi Jesska, lovely, lots of clarity.

1) If you look closely, you will find that you cannot find any particular place where thoughts come from or go to. Can you verify that? Look closer, can you find any location thoughts come from, or are in, or a time frame they move within? Can any of that be found looking closely in direct experience?

2) What does "I" refer to? Does it refer to "a separate unchanging self"?

3) Is there a separate self? Is there any doubt? Is anything unclear?

I hope this post finds you in good health!

1) I can verify. I cannot find a location where they come from, are in or a time frame that they move within. They simply come, go, and are there while they're there. I cannot find the location of anything when looking closely in direct experience.

2) "I" refers to the experience of the meatsuit. Ha ha. The individual (Jesska) that has been created out of the experience of being a human being.

3) No, there is no separate self, no doubt and nothing that is unclear.

[Elad]

Hi Jesska, lovely, lots of clarity.

1) If you look closely, you will find that you cannot find any particular place where thoughts come from or go to. Can you verify that? Look closer, can you find any location thoughts come from, or are in, or a time frame they move within? Can any of that be found looking closely in direct experience?

2) What does "I" refer to? Does it refer to "a separate unchanging self"?

3) Is there a separate self? Is there any doubt? Is anything unclear?

I hope this post finds you in good health!

1) I can verify. I cannot find a location where they come from, are in or a time frame that they move within. They simply come, go, and are there while they're there. I cannot find the location of anything when looking closely in direct experience.

2) "I" refers to the experience of the meatsuit. Ha ha. The individual (Jesska) that has been created out of the experience of being a human being.

3) No, there is no separate self, no doubt and nothing that is unclear.

Beautiful! Now please look closer.

Is there an inherent connection between the word "I" and "the meat suit"? Does the meat suit inherently say it is "I" or it is just itself? Does "I" inherently refer to meat suit or it is just a word/sound/thought with no inherent essential meaning?

I understand that conventionally speaking we use the word to refer to a specific body mind. But here now we wanna make sure it is clear: does this connection exist in direct experience or only in thought and belief?