Identity vs Who am I

[pennylane]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no concrete entity that comprises the identity or self of a person. A person's identity or the concept of 'self' is a collection of thoughts, experiences, sensations, and emotions disconnected from the physical form and biological composition of the body.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a way to introspect about the concepts of self and personal identity. I hope to gain greater insight into how the human experience fits into this idea of personal identity and spirituality.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a guide to lead me to making some observations about myself and who I am, and how this relates to the world I experience through my thoughts, sensorial inputs, and emotions. The guide should be thoughtful and questioning but not overly leading so that I can come to my own independent observations and conclusions upon answering questions made to me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been involved with some organized religion but typically I have rejected it as too rigid or incomplete. I am interested in exploring new ideas and open-minded about varying spiritual practices. I may reject them, but I will consider them fully first if thoughtfully presented.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Pennylane,

My name is Jana, welcome to LU, I'd be happy to be your guide.

At LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs, including non-duality or religious beliefs. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty. Do not rely on your memory or past experience but willing to look, with “Fresh Eyes”.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions, if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the sake of intensity and to keep focus, I would like to make an agreement that we (guide and client) respond to this thread every day. It is understood that special circumstances may arise when you are unable to post, I would ask that you touch base and let me know.

Quote function: Please watch this video on how to use the quote function, this will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ


Would you like to get started?

What may I call you?

Jana

[pennylane]

Would you like to get started?

Sure.

What may I call you?

You may call me Kat.

[CrystalBeach]

Nice to meet you Kat,

Let's start with your expectations, in your own words with 100% honesty, answer the following questions.

How will life change?

How will you change?

What will be different?

What is missing?

In the willingness to see, your answer was an 8, what is in the way of it being a 10 or 11?

Jana

[pennylane]

How will life change?

I don't expect that life will change. It will continue as always. I may be more mindful about the thoughts and observations I have, but outwardly, I expect my reactions to them to be essentially the same.

How will you change?

I may have a different perspective on how I view the world around me and my interactions with others. I may regard what is true and what is illusory in a new light. I don't have any expectations around this, however. For me this exercise is a fun thought experiment that may bring new clarity to questions I have pondered throughout my life.

What will be different?

I don't expect anything to be different except the way that I perceive the world around me in the context of what I experience.

What is missing?

I do not have anything glaringly missing. I have problems, as most everyone does. These problems will need solving. But I do not expect anything I glean from going through this process to solve them. The problems I have are worldly problems. Not internal or emotional problems.

In the willingness to see, your answer was an 8, what is in the way of it being a 10 or 11?

I have spent time thinking about what connects us all and the existence of a creator. I am pretty open-minded but if I'm being perfectly honest, I don't believe that I would be able to throw out all of my existing beliefs, especially those involving a creator and a divine plan. But insofar as making observations and being mindful about the present, I can do that. I guessed an 8 because I don't really have sufficient details to evaluate how this process may affect me.

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Kat,

I am pretty open-minded but if I'm being perfectly honest, I don't believe that I would be able to throw out all of my existing beliefs, especially those involving a creator and a divine plan. But insofar as making observations and being mindful about the present, I can do that. I guessed an 8 because I don't really have sufficient details to evaluate how this process may affect me.

Thank you for your honesty.

What comes up when reading that there is no "separate self," never has been & never will be? It is all a made up story.

Jana

[pennylane]

What comes up when reading that there is no "separate self," never has been & never will be? It is all a made up story.

Well of course one's life is a series of stories driven by thoughts in the mind. But the thoughts that happen for a person are unique to that person. How can anyone be assured that their sensorial or emotional experience is like any other? No other body has these thoughts in the same way. They are unique. So how much of this is just semantics and interpretation? What is meant by "separate self" exactly? How does one define that? Could not the "separate self" just be defined as the stream of consciousness that a person has which layers the made up story on top of life's experiences?

[CrystalBeach]

Hi again Kat,

Thank you for your answers, and questions :)

At LU we ask the client look, using direct experience to see what's true, LU is not focused on "thought experiments" rather on seeing through the illusion of an inherent self that is in control of thoughts and life.

There is a big difference between knowing that there is no separate self entity vs. seeing it firsthand in experience right now.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Do you agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking?

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" as an experience, it is very important that you are clear about this difference. And that you practice the exercises as given.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. This is not an intellectual process or understanding. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear on this or need further explanation.


Jana

[pennylane]

Do you agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking?

Yes. I agree. I am clear on the concept and I will do the exercises as stated. Do you have an exercise for me? Thank you for your time with me on this.

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Kat!

Yes. I agree. I am clear on the concept and I will do the exercises as stated. Do you have an exercise for me?

Great, let's practice looking from Direct Experience.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Thank you for your time with me on this.

You are so welcome Kat, it's an honor to walk with you and point along the way.

Just a note, I did read all of your questions, and we can get back to the experience of thoughts arising, in a future exercise.

:)
Jana

[pennylane]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Ok. Here are three examples.

Cooking Bacon for Breakfast
See: Marbling of fat (white) and meat (pink) that makes up the strips of bacon of about 1/8-in thickness.
Smell: The distinctive smell of bacon as the fat warms and drips into the pan.
Touch/Sensation: The heat of the pan as the bacon cooks. The crunchiness in the mouth in eating the bacon.
Hear: The sizzling sound of the bacon frying in its own grease.
Taste: The sweet hickory smoky flavor of the bacon when eating it.
Thought: This is very tasty and cooked to perfection.

Taking a Shower
See: The water emitting from above in a spray format and the surrounding enclosure that keeps water bounded.
Smell: The smell of the soap as it gets wet from the water and steam. The laundered smell of the washcloth.
Touch/Sensation: The feel of the hot water hitting skin and the wetness of the water as it cascades down.
Hear: The sound of the water spraying and dripping from my body to the shower floor.
Taste: The vaguely mineral taste of the water as it drips down my face into my mouth.
Thought: I am relaxed and warmed. This feels good.

Purchasing Junk Silver at an Event
See: The variations on each coin with different levels of wear and different markings/engravings.
Smell: The metallic smell of the coins as they are handled and a saltiness imparted from human hands that have touched it.
Touch/Sensation: The hardness, heaviness and roundness of the coins as they are selected from the bin.
Hear: The jingling as the coins clank together when they are piled and collected into an envelope.
Taste: N/A (I did not taste the coins.)
Thought: These are interesting coins to look at and may be useful as tradable assets later.

I increased my awareness using direct observations relative to the things and people I encountered throughout the day as instructed. I noticed that it was easiest to have simple observations when others were not present. Other people would tend to affect my direct observations as their spoken words would impact my thoughts interrupting my concentration before my direct observations were completed.

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Kat,

I'm sorry for the delay, I had issues with my wifi yesterday.

Let's look at the exercise again and take it apart a bit.

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are. Give it some time, then stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).

Refer to the list below, these are are the only items any experience can be.


Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Perform the exercise again report back in this format exactly:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Please let me know if you have questions.

warmly
Jana

[pennylane]

Please let me know if you have questions.

I do have a question about what it is that is desired in the format. It seems to me that as soon as I am translating what I see/hear/smell/feel/taste into words to type into a response, the observation leaves the realm of DE and enters the realm of labeling and thought as language itself ties to thoughts. How can I possibly have a written response that is not based on thoughts and labels? Is it a matter of lacking as much description as possible in the reporting to satisfy the exercise?

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Kat,

It seems to me that as soon as I am translating what I see/hear/smell/feel/taste into words to type into a response, the observation leaves the realm of DE and enters the realm of labeling and thought as language itself ties to thoughts. How can I possibly have a written response that is not based on thoughts and labels? Is it a matter of lacking as much description as possible in the reporting to satisfy the exercise?

Yes we do use words to communicate and I understand that it may seem like jumping to thoughts when you start to type. This exercise is to simply to make sure we are both on the same page with the difference between how we think about an experience (the labels, stories and emotions we place on it) compared to what we actually experience with the senses (feeling, hearing, tasting, seeing, smelling and thoughts arising).

If I were to do this exercise while typing on my computer the result and format would be..

Seeing letters on the keyboard and letters/colors on the monitor, simply= image/color
Hearing a car pass by, simply hearing

When you do the exercise just observe that there is just "smelling" when it comes to the bacon, everything beyond that,
"it smells good or burnt" is just the mind labeling. The mind will still label, but just direct your attention or notice just the smell. In your direct experience smelling is happening and thoughts are appearing.. that's all.

Again the exercises are not about knowledge or beautiful description (which yours are :)) it's about your direct experience in this moment. In one of your answers to the original questions you wrote,

But insofar as making observations and being mindful about the present, I can do that.

This exercise seeing what is there when looking directly at your experience, not about your mind making observations.
If you will, give it a go again and let me know how it goes..

looking forward to hearing back from you
Jana

[pennylane]

If you will, give it a go again and let me know how it goes..

Ok. I think I understand better. Let me try again.

Seeing blankets, simply= image/color
Smelling sheets, simply = smell
Feeling softness/warmth, simply = sensation
Hearing blankets rustle, simply = sound
Thought about getting into bed, simply = thought

Seeing picture on cover, simply= image/color
Smelling paper, simply = smell
Feeling texture of pages, simply = sensation
Hearing the turning of pages, simply = sound
Thought about reading a book, simply = thought

Seeing plastic cylinder, simply= image/color
Smelling beeswax, simply = smell
Feeling smoothness on lips, simply = sensation
Tasting peppermint flavor, simply = taste
Hearing pop of cap removal, simply = sound
Thought about applying chapstick, simply = thought

Is this closer to what you were hoping I would observe in the present?