Questioning beliefs

[TeaEnjoyer]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have the feeling of being a separate self. But when I look for what I am, I cannot find what my name refers to exacty. I assume the sense of there being a self occured because there are others who call me by my name, the language I use refers to an 'I', and there are other beliefs that I learned growing up which support the existence of a self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help from someone who can help me question my beliefs and assumptions about my experience. It is difficult to investigate my unconcious beliefs and assumptions alone (because I might not even realize that I have these beliefs). If I can work with someone who saw for themselves that there is no separate self, they can help me see that as well, sort of like how someone who knows how a magic trick is done can explain to you how you are getting fooled.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that my guide will point out any unfounded belief I have which causes the illusion of a separate self to persist. I will try to question my beliefs as honestly as I can and I hope my guide can keep me on the right track.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I got into meditation through Sam Harris' Waking Up app about 5 years ago. I used his app for a few years as a causual mediator. Then I started exploring other non-dual teachers like Angelo Dilullo, Lisa Cairns, Eckhart Tolle, etc. I tried many different meditation styles like choiceless awareness, vipassana noting, self-inquiry, breath meditation, metta meditation. But I never went to a mediation retreat or meditated for more than 30 mins a day consistently.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Brane]

Hi,

what can I call you?
Hey! I'd love to guide you, but it's all about our time zones clicking, as occasional live sessions could be beneficial. If that works for you, I'm in Europe, on CET. What's your time zone?

Cheers,
Branimir

[TeaEnjoyer]

Hello,

My name's Boran. My time zone is GMT+3 so it's about 20.45 when I'm writing this message. I'd love to work together if the time zones work.

Cheers,
Boran

[Brane]

Hi Boran,

Ok, that puts you two hours ahead of me, right?

That sounds good. My plan is to guide you on LU, but it's also crucial to schedule some online meetings. During these sessions, you can ask questions, we can get to know each other better, and I can directly point you to certain aspects. Both written and live communication have their advantages, so combining them makes sense to me.

The guidance on LU focuses on seeing that there is no such an entity as self that manages life. When I mention "seeing," it doesn't mean the immediate eradication of suffering or shedding the accumulated beliefs and conditioning from years past. It's important to be aware of this to manage expectations. In most cases, further work is required, and if you're interested, there's always the option to continue beyond the LU forum.

Please let me know your schedule for live meetings. I prefer between 8 and 12 am almost every day, except for weekends.

In the meantime, please share with me:

Why did you embark on this path?
How important is awakening for you?
Are you ready to integrate it into your daily life?
Can you share more about your spiritual background?

Be authentic; I need this simply to gain more context.

Looking forward to working with you.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Hello again Branimir,

Yes I’m two hours ahead.
For the online meetings I prefer 10 am here which would be 8 am in your time zone I think.

Why did you embark on this path?

At first it was simply because I was intrigued. As I said on my registration form, I first got introduced to meditation from Sam Harris’ Waking Up app and over there he was talking about the absence of free will and how being a self is an illusion which was interesting to me. Over the years, by listening to Sam Harris and other non-duality teachers I started to realize how most of my reactivity is tied to my sense of being a separate self. I also started feeling like investigating my personal experience is the most authentic thing I can do, because if the way I experience the world is based on false assumptions, how I view everything will be wrong. Of course, there were times when I got frustrated or hopeless and stopped meditation, but this sense that there was something I needed to realize about life always remained in the back of my head.

How important is awakening for you?

I think its the most important thing for me. Usually I lose interest in things fairly quickly but my curiosity about this no-self business never faded.

Are you ready to integrate it into your daily life?

Do you mean if I’m ready to take the inquiry into my daily life? If so, yes. I will do my best to make this my primary focus when I’m not busy with my other responsibilities.

Can you share more about your spiritual background?

I was raised by atheist parents. But all my friends were muslims and in school they indoctrinated us about Islam as well so I became a muslim (but I didn’t know much about the religion, it was more about fitting in). In my teenage years I started questioning things and became an atheist. At this point I was quite alergic to anything sounding spiritual or religious. I had a very nihilistic outlook on life. Eventually, I came across Sam Harris when I saw his debates about religion on YouTube. When I saw that he talked about meditation I was surprised because in my mind meditation was about stupid spiritual stuff. Anyway, since I thought Sam Harris was a rational person I gave his meditation app a chance and eventually started reading about all sorts of spiritual stuff. Mostly but not exclusively related to non-duality. Here is a list of some of the spiritual teachers I resonate or have resonated with: Angelo Dilullo, Sam Harris, Eckhart Tolle, Lisa Cairns, Adyashanti.

And thanks for taking the time to help me. I really appreciate it.

[Brane]

For the online meetings I prefer 10 am here which would be 8 am in your time zone I think.

perfect, I'll let you know in the coming days when we can meet. It might be possible next week, if not, then the the week after for sure.

i love your answers. I asked this to check your dedication. This is not a part-time job. If we are willing to explore, this has to be our number one thing in life. When I say integrating in life, I simply mean to practice not just during mediation, but to face our beliefs and conditions whenever possible.

but this sense that there was something I needed to realize about life always remained in the back of my head.

This is very good and important. The intuition suggests that something is not right in how we live this life. Trust this intuition, it will be your best guide and teacher along the way.

Before we start, here are some points you may want to take a look, which should help you to orient. Simply have this in mind:

Let go of expectations. The brain naturally projects things and expects the awakening to change our lives. This is simply the mind trying to imagine the outcome. That's fine. Simply notice a thought when it shows up and move on. Stay open and let everything be as it is.

Do not anticipate any shift to happen while doing the inquiry, or generally during the process. This is so important. Stay with whatever inquiry you are doing, and do not fall into the trap of imagination. The mind will go there, but simply be aware and let it go.

Let go of doubts suggesting that you cannot do it. It is crucial when a doubt arises to notice it and let it go. This process is about something other than how “intelligent” we are. It has nothing to do with it.

Avoid being judgmental. The process may be occasionally frustrating, and you may find yourself judging. This is fine. We all do. However, be ready to notice that. Notice the thoughts and let them go. Do not cling to them nor suppress them. Don’t judge the judging thoughts. Instead of fighting thoughts, be simply kind to them. Openness is the key.

Try to put aside all your beliefs and prior teachings. This can create expectations that can prevent a breakthrough. We want to orient the mind toward the inquiry and whatever is happening right now. While it is impossible to ignore the accumulated knowledge, as it is processing already in our brains, simply try to read and watch less than usual.


My job here is simply to guide you and point you to your beliefs and how to trust your intuition about this. Being curious is key, as well as being open towards literary everything that arises in the present moment.

So, let's start slowly:

This inquiry is about seeing and realizing that there is no such thing as a separate self. Now, I am telling you that there is absolutely no such thing in any given moment. Zero. There is no "you" managing life, your actions, and reactions.

How does this come across when stated so?


When looking into this question, simply observe how the thinking system operates and how it responds to this. See what narratives arise and what the reaction of the "mind" is.

Relax and have fun, my friend. Do not take it too seriously:)

[TeaEnjoyer]

perfect, I'll let you know in the coming days when we can meet. It might be possible next week, if not, then the the week after for sure.

Sounds good to me.

This inquiry is about seeing and realizing that there is no such thing as a separate self. Now, I am telling you that there is absolutely no such thing in any given moment. Zero. There is no "you" managing life, your actions, and reactions.

How does this come across when stated so?

I sat with this question a little bit. I can’t say I detect any significant reaction to this statement. There is some curiosity and a desire to see what you mean by that. Maybe just a tiny bit of uneasiness also shows up if I really focus on what it feels to be me and the possibility of that not existing. But it’s very tiny.

[Brane]

Take some time to reflect on this question, and don't hesitate to explore it in less familiar or more challenging settings—give it a shot when you're outside your usual comfort zone. Currently, we're just testing the waters. There will be several questions, and based on that pointers. But before that, I'd like to learn more about you.

Maybe just a tiny bit of uneasiness also shows up if I really focus on what it feels to be me

Tiny Uneasiness: If there's a tiny uneasiness, gently explore it. What thoughts or beliefs are connected to this uneasiness? Simply explore without analyzing too much.

[TeaEnjoyer]

don't hesitate to explore it in less familiar or more challenging settings—give it a shot when you're outside your usual comfort zone

Allright, I'll try to carry this question with me throughout the day and see what comes up. Will also look into the uneasiness more. I'll get back to you.

[TeaEnjoyer]

This inquiry is about seeing and realizing that there is no such thing as a separate self. Now, I am telling you that there is absolutely no such thing in any given moment. Zero. There is no "you" managing life, your actions, and reactions.

How does this come across when stated so?

Okay. So, I returned to this question a few times a day today. Here is how it goes: First of all, this time I couldn’t sense any uneasiness.Yesterday when uneasiness appeared it was really subtle, like a minor version of butterflies in my stomach but not in my stomach. More so in the lower part of my chest. Today I couldn’t detect that. I didn’t have any emotional response whatsoever. I say to myself “There is no “me” managing life and my reactions”. I wait to see if there is a response. There doesn’t seem to be a response related to that statement. Then, I think to myself “why isn’t there a response?”. I catch myself thinking “Maybe I just grew numb to this statement because I heard it so much or because on an intellectual level I agree with it.” Then, because there is no response I catch myself thinking about what I might report back to you.

Of course, I don’t consciously choose to think these thoughts, but I notice they show up. When I try to go back to the statement “there is no me managing my life and my actions” I look into my experience to see if that is true. To see if there is a “me” that is threatened by that statement. But I can’t find anything. After that boredom kicks in and I start to get lost in thoughts again.

[Brane]

Hi,

I want to suggest a meeting on Thursday this week. Would 9pm my time work for you?

Great observations, this is exactly where I wanted we to go - into the mind. You pointed exactly there.
I like how you explore this, keep doing all of it, including challenging the truth value of our beliefs. I see that you are truly invested by how you look at this.

After that boredom kicks in and I start to get lost in thoughts again.

That's fine, it's completely normal to get lost in thoughts. Keep in mind to stay open and kind to both the intellectual and emotional part. This how we create foundations for deeper insights.

Of course, I don’t consciously choose to think these thoughts, but I notice they show up. When I try to go back to the statement “there is no me managing my life and my actions” I look into my experience to see if that is true.

Very good. I would suggest now to look at how the thinking system operates. Simply explore without much analyzing. Gently look at how thoughts and stories arise. Simply look at it. Apply gentle openness and kindness when you look at this. Then simply ask these questions with a sense of curiosity:

Is there anything that can control the thinking system?

Can one stop the thinking process?

If one sincerely looks, can a thinker be found?

If we can't control any of this, and there's no thinker or source of thoughts to be found, then WHO's doing the talking?

[TeaEnjoyer]

Hello,

I want to suggest a meeting on Thursday this week. Would 9pm my time work for you?

So 11 pm my time? That works for me. Let me know if it's going to be on Zoom or some other platform.

Is there anything that can control the thinking system?
Can one stop the thinking process?
If one sincerely looks, can a thinker be found?
If we can't control any of this, and there's no thinker or source of thoughts to be found, then WHO's doing the talking?

I'll work on these and get back to you.

[TeaEnjoyer]

Hello again,

I did some more inquiring on your questions. These are difficult to describe, I hope I made myself clear. If something is difficult to understand please ask me to clarify.

Is there anything that can control the thinking system?

So, I feel like there are two types of thought streams. First type is the one you get lost in. You do not chose to think these thoughts and instead they happen to you. There is no feeling of control over these thoughts. The second type are the thoughts streams that I feel like I am guiding. To investigate this second type, I tried to purposefully think thoughts. First, a thought appears about what I might think next (this first thought is outside my control, it just pops-up). Then, there is a leaning into the mind to start thinking about whatever subject came up. As I am leaning into my mind to consciously think about the subject, thoughts start appearing about this subject. I am not choosing which particular thoughts show up, but they are usually related to whatever subject came to my mind.

This sense of leaning into the mind to start thinking: I can’t say it is what controls the thinking system since thoughts still appear by themselves. But when this “leaning into the mind” feeling occurs, it feels like I am more in control of these thoughts (though when I look purposefully, this doesn’t seem to be the case. Thoughts just appear with this feeling accompanying them).

Leaning into the mind to start thinking happens after a random thought pops-up in my mind suggesting that I should think about something (for example, remembering my tasks for the day). In that sense, I am not in control of it, it is dependent on random thoughts that show up.

Can one stop the thinking process?

No. If I choose to stop thinking for a while, very soon thoughts start creeping up in my head against my wishes.

Okay, so maybe I can’t stop thoughts forever, but can I choose to stop them when they are happening? I say to myself “okay, now I am gonna intentionally start thinking and at some point I am going to stop intentionally”. What happens is, as I am in the middle of a thought, randomly a thought pops-up reminding me to stop thinking. Then a-split second later stopping happens. I was not in control of the stopping or the thought that reminded me to stop.

If one sincerely looks, can a thinker be found?

I looked as best as I can. I haven’t found a thinker. Sometimes I am lost in thoughts and sometimes I am more conscious as I am thinking. There is more ownership of thoughts if I am more conscious as they are happening, but upon closer inspection thoughts appear by themselves even if I am conscious as this is happening.

If we can't control any of this, and there's no thinker or source of thoughts to be found, then WHO's doing the talking?

It seems like they just happen on their own. Though I guess I am not convinced on a subconscious level, otherwise I would have awakened probably :)

[Brane]

very nice.

I'll get back to you later with a detailed response.

If we can't control any of this, and there's no thinker or source of thoughts to be found, then WHO's doing the talking?
It seems like they just happen on their own. Though I guess I am not convinced on a subconscious level, otherwise I would have awakened probably :)

In the meantime, keep gently exploring this. Direct your attention to the WHO. Begin by noticing the automatic nature of thoughts. Once is clear that they are arising automatic, actively seek out the WHO. Approach this inquiry with a curious mindset.

As for the meeting, I will write you a PM later, so make sure to check your inbox.

Have fun:)

[Brane]

To investigate this second type, I tried to purposefully think thoughts.

But the intention to investigate or to "purposefuly think thoughts" —where does it come from? Was there something to cause this thought to happen? Is there a starting point of thoughts? . Even when you intentionally try to think certain thoughts, the intention to do so does not have a clear source. When you reflect in retrospective, you see that. Give it a try and see for yourself, do not rely on what I am saying – keep it simple.

But when this “leaning into the mind” feeling occurs, it feels like I am more in control of these thoughts (though when I look purposefully, this doesn’t seem to be the case. Thoughts just appear with this feeling accompanying them).

That's correct, it indeed feels as you described. When a particular story unfolds, it's natural for thoughts associated with that narrative to emerge. This process reflects a form of mental conditioning, showcasing how our minds operate and what sets us apart from other species. It's positive that it functions this way. However, our focus here isn't on that aspect. Let's not intellectualize this too much and keep it rather simple.

I say to myself “okay, now I am gonna intentionally start thinking and at some point I am going to stop intentionally”. What happens is, as I am in the middle of a thought, randomly a thought pops-up reminding me to stop thinking. Then a-split second later stopping happens.

Please try this investigation again and again if needed.

Can you truly, with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, do anything about that?
How long did it take for the next thought to appear?

It seems like they just happen on their own. Though I guess I am not convinced on a subconscious level, otherwise I would have awakened probably :)

When I say look for who, i truly meant that:) This kind of investigation may work well:
When we catch ourselves to realize how automatic and without control this thinking is, then with a sense of CURIOSITY, simply ask:

If this is so volatile and automatic, who the heck is speaking then?

Thought will attempt to intellectualize and take credit in different ways for this. Simply notice them, and turn again the focus to the question. Be kind to thoughts and whatever arises.