What is This?

[Bluejay]

When avva’s parents died two years ago, she went into a depression.

Sorry to hear that!

Avva is looking at those books/ideas again about positive thinking, forgiveness, unconditional acceptance. Is it possible to practise positive thinking when you don’t believe in the thinker? Can you forgive and accept when you are not the doer? Those books warned against a victim mentality. They talked about being the creator of your reality. How to reconcile belief in no-self with the practice of positive thinking, forgiveness, and unconditional acceptance?

There has never been a doer. From what you write it sounds like you are now identified with not being a doer. If you feel like a doer, then be a doer fully. It doesn't help to believe that there is no doer. In fact, it can often lead to helplessness and depression because you feel like you can't do anything. It becomes another belief.

How do people forgive and accept now? There is no self or doer in anyone.

Let me be honest with what I'm sensing...

I'm beginning to feel like it might be best to pause this conversation if the emotions that are coming up are overwhelming you. It may be wise to go to therapy for a while and come back when you feel more stable.

What are you looking for in seeing that there is no inherent self?

Seeing this will not make intense emotions or pain go away. In fact, it can sometimes bring more of them up, because the self is often a defense mechanism for things we don't want to feel.

I recommend you read this and see if anything stands out: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Let me know what you think :)

[avva]

Okay. Let's pause this conversation.
Thank you, Henri, for your guidance.

[Bluejay]

If you feel you want to continue, just post in this thread and someone will be with you.

I wish you all the best!

[avva]

I would like to continue my thread, please.
If Henri is not available, then with another guide.
Thank you.

[Bluejay]

Hi,

I am here. Would you like to continue with me or with another guide?

You always have the option to ask for another guide at any time.

[avva]

I would like to continue with you, please, if you don't mind.

[Bluejay]

Of course!

Is there something specific that is coming up that you want to explore next?

[avva]

How do I get out of the belief and into direct realisation? I look and look and look again. Perhaps I am not doing the looking well.

[Bluejay]

You keep looking over and over. It's not really about looking in a good or bad way, but simply looking until there is a shift, like looking for a bird in the forest that never arrives.

Whenever there is a sense that you are in control and making something happen, look for who it is that is deciding. Can you find the decider?

You can also look back in our thread to go through previous exercises and also use them during your day.

For example, when you walk around, are you moving the legs?

When you decide what to eat, how does that decision happen? Is there a decider?

When there is a sense of self, separate the senses and look in each one.

[avva]

What is noticed is that identifying with the thinker/speaker is still there. The perceiver and the doer are obviously not there. The thinker is the same as the speaker – it feels. When the thoughts appear in the mind, there is a sensation in the mouth, as if the thought-words were somehow formed there, just like when speaking. A sensation is not ‘I’ though, and speaking is just another form of doing.
Conceptually it has been seen many times that there is no-one here who could think, that the ‘I’ is a thought itself and thoughts cannot think. The thought ‘This is how it feels when thoughts are arising on their own’ arises again and again, but it still feels like ‘I’ am deliberately inserting this thought, just like the clean-up crew, to convince ‘myself’: the thinker.
It has been seen again and again that there is no border between thought and thinker, that thoughts just happen on their own, just like other perceptions. The very idea of a thinker is just a thought.
Thoughts and feelings come from nowhere, not produced by anyone. The desire to wake up comes from nowhere. The feelings of inadequacy come from nowhere. There is no-one here who these thoughts talk about.
Still, thoughts suck attention in, belief in the thinker is happening, no matter how many after-thought clean-up crew is ‘sent’ in. There is judgement happening, that it shouldn’t be like that, that the ‘I’ should have been seen through long ago. That this is not okay, not acceptable. But there is no-one judging, no-one desparate for awakening. These feelings are just there. And the accompanying sensations in the body are there too, and they are allowed.

[Bluejay]

So if you see through the thinker and that everything is happening by itself, what is the problem?

What are you expecting to happen when you see through everything 'fully'? (and I use fully here as in how you imagine it to be)

Do you expect certain feelings to not be here, or certain thoughts to not be here?

Still, thoughts suck attention in, belief in the thinker is happening, no matter how many after-thought clean-up crew is ‘sent’ in. There is judgement happening, that it shouldn’t be like that, that the ‘I’ should have been seen through long ago. That this is not okay, not acceptable

Yes, this will happen even after seeing through the inherent self.

Did you watch the below videos? I'll post them again:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This process goes back and forth. Expansion and contraction. Sometimes feelings of openness, and then sometimes pulled into the shadows as things are seemingly worked through.

[avva]

Yes, I have watched those videos, thank you.
Do you think I can 'graduate' now from LU?
Is this flip-flopping true? Can you really go back and forth?
I guess I was expecting a solid knowing of some kind.

[Bluejay]

Do you think I can 'graduate' now from LU?

It depends on if it's intellectual or if it's experiential. You could probably graduate now, but it would be best to make sure that there has been an experiential shift, so we don't have to be in a hurry, because even if there has been a shift, any exploration now will only be beneficial.

Has there been a clear shift where you saw that there is no inherent self?

Is there a sense of freedom compared to before seeing this?

Is it clear in all aspects? (decision-maker, thinker, feeler, experiencer, and so on)

Is this flip-flopping true? Can you really go back and forth?
I guess I was expecting a solid knowing of some kind.

Yes there can definitely be a back and forth as the body adapts.

There is a lot that depended on the belief of an inherent self. When that is seen through, there can be a lot of upheaval and review of old conditioning and other beliefs.

And as you've noticed, many strong emotions can surface, but they should be somewhat easier to deal with as they are not so personal anymore.

So when you say a solid knowing, what do you mean?

And what would a solid knowing look like?

[avva]

Has there been a clear shift where you saw that there is no inherent self?

Is there a sense of freedom compared to before seeing this?

I would like to give you a little background first.
7 years ago I read Eckhart Tolle’s The Power of Now, which fundamentally changed my way of thinking. I realised for the first time that the voice in the head was not me, but it didn’t fully sink in then.
4 years ago I had a 3-second realisation that I didn’t have any identity. I was so scared at this thought that I quickly shut it down. I thought I was going mad.
1 year ago I started practising unconditional acceptance. There was a big shift in my mood then. I was very happy for 8 months.
During the summer I started to feel restless and I went for very long walks. During these walks I tried to be in the present moment as much as I could, and I experienced bliss on many occasions.
In September awakening became an obsession and negative feelings started to surface when self-inquiry started in earnest.
I contacted an awakened teacher who told me that she could feel energetically that I had had an initial awakening.
Then I started to be guided here at LU. As self-inquiry intensified, so did negative emotions. The long walks turned into crying rounds.
There have been lots of small insights on the way, always deepening the knowing of no-self.
But
I don’t consciously remember any experiential shifts. Right now I am not experiencing freedom because the emotions are very heavy. My teacher says I am undergoing the emotional phase of awakening and these emotions might be blocking the shift.
I don’t know anything any more. I am again practising unconditional acceptance and mindfulness. I started doing Zen sittings. There has been a great reduction in the seeking energy. All feelings, thoughts and sensations are allowed. There is an attempt to reach a peaceful state with what is.

Is it clear in all aspects? (decision-maker, thinker, feeler, experiencer, and so on)

It goes like this: The thought ‘I need to do the laudry’ comes to mind. Then I stop and think: ‘Who is this ‘I’? And why does this ‘I’ think she can control the body?’ So consciously it is clear that there is no self, but unconsciously the belief in the self is probably still there. Lots of limiting beliefs are holding it together there (like ‘I am no good’).

So when you say a solid knowing, what do you mean?

And what would a solid knowing look like?

A solid knowing for me is a permanent, doubtless knowing that doesn’t come from the thinking mind, but from intuition.

I would like to come back to this thread once every week, if that is all right with you, until that experiential shift happens.

[Bluejay]

I don’t consciously remember any experiential shifts. Right now I am not experiencing freedom because the emotions are very heavy. My teacher says I am undergoing the emotional phase of awakening and these emotions might be blocking the shift.

Yes, I would agree with your teacher.

These emotional phases can come and go during awakening as more filters and beliefs drop away.

It goes like this: The thought ‘I need to do the laudry’ comes to mind. Then I stop and think: ‘Who is this ‘I’? And why does this ‘I’ think she can control the body?’ So consciously it is clear that there is no self, but unconsciously the belief in the self is probably still there. Lots of limiting beliefs are holding it together there (like ‘I am no good’).

Understood. So it may not have fully sunk in. Then you keep looking each time it comes up.

And also keep feeling all the emotions that come up, which you are already doing.

A solid knowing for me is a permanent, doubtless knowing that doesn’t come from the thinking mind, but from intuition.

This is an excellent expectation.

I would like to come back to this thread once every week, if that is all right with you, until that experiential shift happens.

This sounds good.

Here's a pointer you can explore:

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground and so on?

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'you' autonomously intervene into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look cool for a certain person) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'you' are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Enjoy :)