Overcoming Doubt

[oconnordon]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no thought-created self. That there is no-one here. No doer of things that I seem to do or say, and so on. Often it seems quite clear to me, and yet there's still a feeling or contention that there's a "me" here all the time. And I also get persuaded by thoughts about "me" and feel like I get dragged into identification in stories

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for help with the doubts, the distraction, the stories I believe. The doubt and the feeling of me are still very strong, even though I often see quite clearly. Sometimes I feel like I see very clearly. I had an experience 23 years ago at a Dzogchen retreat that seemed like awakening. It lasted for three months. And yet I feel more identified with thoughts than ever since then. It's almost like that never happened. I get glimpses but I revert back to confusion for very long periods in between. There's no sense of things getting lighter. There was 23 years ago for three months, but never now. I get glimpses but the weight of depression, anxiety, low self esteem, and so on ... that doesn't drop. There must be "someone" here that that stuff is all about. Why can't I find that someone or see through him? I've been told I need to sort out my disregulated nervous system, so I'm doing TRE and Craniosacral therapy, and a bunch of things. I don't notice much difference yet. I've been told I need to heal my childhood trauma but years of therapy later, I don't know if I have lightened any of that load yet either. I often feel like wherever I start, I should have done something else first. Like a Catch-22. I don't know how to trust myself. Sometimes I think that the main thing I need is encouragement and support. Plus some kind of guidance to keep going in the right direction. I don't know which is the right direction myself. So little of what I try seems to yield a result that I don't know which way to go. Yeah: looking for guidance!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointers, I guess. Encouragement. To be honest, I would hope for someone who will spend the time to understand where I'm starting from. I've had so much generic advice during my life - advice that works for most people but not for me. There's some trauma stuff here, some blockages that I haven't cleared yet. I'm not sure. It's not easy. Yeah, basically encouragement; some kind of confidence that I'm going in the right direction.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
It's been difficult. I had one clear experience in the year 2000 and I've been trying to figure out what that was ever since. Recently, I feel like I've had a few glimpses. I've been looking into non-duality for the past 4 years. Sometimes it seems very clear to me. Other times I feel so identified that it's like I never heard of awakening. I feel very blocked by resistance, distraction, lack of confidence in the whole thing.
I try to do a consistent practice, but it depends on the day what I can do. From day to day I can be depressed, anxious, overwhelmed, distracted, emotional, focussed, enthusiastic, etc. Depends on the day. I'd like to think that I'm doing something consistent, day to day. But I'm often just responding to whatever is happening, trying to see what I can see. Sometimes I think I am doing something useful. Other times, I feel like I am just drifting.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Luchana]

Hi Don,

Thank you for reaching out and sharing your thread with me.

While we meet tomorrow can you look at these questions and share from experience:


What do you expect to see or not to see here?

How your life will change when you see that?

How will you see that it is fiction?

Sending love,
Luchana

[oconnordon]

What do you expect to see or not to see here?

“Here” being LU? I really want to see through thoughts as not true or not representing reality. I feel like I can be increasingly present when I try to meditate or do inquiry, and I can watch thoughts and emotions going past for a while. But I don’t know if I’m making any progress at not believing them, not getting taken away by them. Is it just a question of staying for longer and longer periods and trying not to be get distracted - and bringing myself back every time? It feels like the insight that thoughts don’t represent reality hasn’t landed. Therefore I’m going to keep believing thoughts and getting distracted by them until I see through them, as a whole.
Most thoughts are not very problematic - except for random kinds of distraction. But thoughts about “me” are more sticky. If they are self-critical thoughts and they resonate with my central feeling of being wrong or worthless or a failure, etc., then they tend to seem like (feel like) they’re true.
It seems to me that I have a filter that I see life and myself through for years or decades - where I’m basically wrong or worthless and the world is scary and people are just about to get angry at me. I don’t necessarily “think” that this is true; it’s just that the world seems this way to me. I don’t know how to persuade myself that it isn’t, as the perception of the world being this way seems to happen before logic or evidence is brought to bear.
I think it’s possible to perceive the world and myself without this filter, but I don’t know how to. I assume that it involves seeing through an initial, foundational thought of “me” that gives identity to everything that follows. Sometimes it feels like a bit of progress with this … but there’s some work still to be done.

How your life will change when you see that?

I have had a few short experiences in my life of not expecting that everything will work out out badly and everyone will be angry with me any minute and not assuming that everything I say and do (and think and want) is wrong. If I didn’t see the world through that lens, I feel like my life would be so much easier. Like enjoying ordinary things; being able to read a book without being constantly distracted; being able to meet people without assuming that they won’t like me all the time; being able to know what I want in life (whoever that I is …). Yeah, just seeing through this negative trip has been my goal for years.

How will you see that it is fiction?

I don’t know yet. There are a lot of thoughts that reinforce each other and feelings that reinforce the thoughts. One kind of thought is the one that repeatedly tells me that I don’t have permission not to believe the negative thoughts. Or that having negative thoughts or doubts implies that I don’t see through this yet. There’s a strong belief that I don’t or can’t see through this, that I will never be able to. I don’t know how to drum up the confidence to believe that I can. I don’t know what is needed to allow that to happen.

Maybe seeing something about the nature of these thoughts, how they are repetitive, how they are just made out of consciousness, how they come and go, how they don’t refer to reality, how they are not about “me” …. I don’t know what insight will be the one I need here. For the moment, it feels like the contention that I can’t escape this set of beliefs and feelings is impervious to evidence or logic. Like the thought habits are saying: “I don’t care if you have evidence or logic; I don’t care if you can see through this; we will just keep on doing this and be in control of your mind and there’s nothing you can do about it.” It’s a bit like the attitude of my Dad, who basically implied that he didn’t care who I was or what I wanted; I would just basically do what he said, and that was that. It feels like there’s a pattern of believing a thought form like that.

But I don’t know. There are feelings and beliefs deep down, I think. It’s not just about thoughts. There’s “trauma in the body” as well, whatever that means. Really, I don’t know what that means. But I think it’s still probably true. I’ve been trying things to help with that. Over the past 2 to 4 months, I’ve been doing TRE and Craniosacral therapy and Rolfing and Somatic Experiencing. I’m not sure that anything has shifted as a result of these things yet, though.

[Luchana]

Hi Don,
thank you for your reflections. It was lovely meeting you.


As we spoke on the meeting - let's focus on thoughts for thoughts are creating the illusion of there being someone here.

Tell me what do you do in order to think?
How do you make a thought into existence?

Sending much love,
Luchana

[oconnordon]

Tell me what do you do in order to think?

It seems like I decide to think about things. But it is not obvious that thoughts don’t just arise. When I sit and wait for the next thought, I can often see a thought come up and then the feeling of identification arises with that. Tbh, I find it quite annoying sometimes when I feel that feeling of identification arise with thoughts, over and over, and I can’t see why I feel so identified or figure out what that feeling of identification even means. Often, when I am watching for the “next thought”, I notice what seems like a torrent of thought energy rushing through my mind. Often my next thought is “I don’t know what I’m thinking”, or “I’m confused”, or “I bet I’m thinking a bunch of stuff here but I can’t even see what it is”. Those are the kind of surface, explicit thoughts that I see. But I suspect that there’s a bunch of identification going on underneath. One reason I suspect such identification is because I usually have a bunch of negative emotions (depression, anxiety, etc.) going on, and I assume that I am creating those in the moment by thinking something and believing it (even though I don’t even notice what I’m thinking or believing.)

When I observe closely, it seems like thoughts are just arising and that I’m not thinking them. However, it feels like I’m thinking them. I still feel like the thinker. Many of the thoughts still feel like they’re about me. Even though I can sometimes see that the thoughts are just arising. It frustrates me that I seem capable of believing that I am the thinker and that the thoughts are about me, even though the evidence I see tells me the opposite.

When I am in a “good place”, like when I feel present and not so distracted, I can see a few thoughts arise and they can have a small feeling of identity about them - they feel like they are about me. It is not too big a deal but the identification is not totally absent either. At other times - like today - it feels like there is a torrent of thought going on, like a whole lot of stories happening at the same time. The stories are about me and I am in them. That’s how it feels right now and I don’t even know what most of the stories are about. I think that this is how I’ve experienced most of my life.

Sometimes in the past year or so I feel that there is more space for me to see with a little clarity. Like I said, there are times of greater clarity where there appear to be very few thoughts and mostly presence. It can feel like I am that presence. But the feeling that I am that feeling of “me”, that thought-created entity, never fully goes away. It’s like two competing versions of me.

How do you make a thought into existence?

Like I said above, it initially seems like I am thinking thoughts until I examine what’s going on. Then it just seems like thoughts are happening. What’s frustrating is that the evidence that thoughts are just arising doesn’t appear to change my opinion or belief that I am thinking my thoughts. The feeling of “me” as the thinker seems not to be interested in the evidence! It seems to be determined to continue to believe in its own existence even in the face of evidence to the contrary. I can watch that feeling of me and recognise that it is an object in awareness; therefore it can’t be who or what I am. But it still feels like “me”.

I guess I believe that I need to see through this so clearly that this feeling of me no longer feels like me.

[Luchana]

Hi Don,
thank you for your replies and reflections.
You can't see (only for now) that some of those come from thinking and not looking, but that is OK. it is common for all of us. Because we are so drown to thoughts, so much investment in the thoughts.

I will focus on few things from your reply, hope you are ok.

When I observe closely, it seems like thoughts are just arising and that I’m not thinking them.

YES! This is direct looking. It direct experience it is seen that thoughts are just arising, no one is thinking them.

However, it feels like I’m thinking them. I still feel like the thinker. Many of the thoughts still feel like they’re about me. Even though I can sometimes see that the thoughts are just arising. It frustrates me that I seem capable of believing that I am the thinker and that the thoughts are about me, even though the evidence I see tells me the opposite.

All right. Let's put a light here on the thoughts about me. I'm inviting you to do this simple exercise.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

What’s frustrating is that the evidence that thoughts are just arising doesn’t appear to change my opinion or belief that I am thinking my thoughts. The feeling of “me” as the thinker seems not to be interested in the evidence!

Frustration is good :-)

What is being frustrated and to what?

Is it a thought which is frustrated ?

Can a thought experience frustration?

Wishing you lovely Christmas and see you 28th.


Much love,
Luchana

[oconnordon]

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

About three times as many thoughts about self as about other. Just thoughts one after another. Hardly any rhyme or reason. Just thoughts. No particular benefit or meaning to them.

[oconnordon]

What is being frustrated and to what?

Is it a thought which is frustrated ?

Can a thought experience frustration?

Sorry for my delay. I was looking at this all day yesterday as well. You'll probably see from my reply below that I continue to be confused.

There’s a feeling of frustration which becomes a feeling of confusion. It’s like when I start to see that there are only thoughts with no thinker, a feeling comes. Once it’s clear based on logic or evidence, then a feeling comes. The feeling is either confusion - where I feel dizzy and can’t seem to think clearly and can’t remember what I was looking at - or the feeling is a doubt that says “you don’t have permission not to believe these thoughts”: “you don’t have permission to base your conclusion on this evidence”; “you must continue to believe you are a thought-created person, no matter what the evidence; you have no choice”. Often there is a kind of paranoid thought that says “my mind is ganging up on me, making me confused, bringing in doubt, making me feel afraid, and so on”.

So, I try to look at the confusion or doubt and realise that they are just thoughts or feelings, objects in awareness. They are not what or who I am. There is a feeling that these habitual patterns in the mind are very strong and determined and there is a thought that I don’t have the freedom to decide what I believe based on the evidence. Like I am trapped with beliefs / feelings that I don’t actually believe. There is a doubt that “I” can do this.

Specifically, the doubt says: “You cannot wake up because this doubt will remain so strong in your system that you will never have the clarity or confidence that you have seen through self, even if you do see through it. This doubt will remain so strong that you will never actually believe or experience that you have seen through self.” There’s a doubt like that.

And I try to step behind that and see that all as thoughts and feelings and activity in the mind / of the mind. But the doubt feels persuasive from here.

Why do I believe this doubt? It appears not to be based on any evidence. It is just a contention. It FEELS very true because it resonates with my identity as the one who can't do this, the one who is wrong. I could just assert that it is not true just because it feels true. I don't think that that is the right way. If it feels this true, I'm going to behave as if it's true; it doesn't matter that I think it isn't true. I haven't managed to get behind that one yet.

Sometimes instead I focus on sights and sounds and sensations - the present moment, presence, silence. There is presence here before names. From here, the doubt is just one of the things that’s happening. It gets less and less important the less I focus on it. It’s just some thought energy. Sometimes the “feeling of me” is just a ripple of thought energy, just like a sensation in the body. It can almost be forgotten and dissolve.

But when I focus on the thoughts and frustration and doubt, and so on, directly, it tends to become bigger and bigger and I get dizzy and overwhelmed and confused and my whole mind goes into a spin and I feel like I have no capacity to continue with the inquiry at all. That often happens.

And then I sometimes ask: “Where is the one doing the inquiry?” And the first answer is “I am doing it”. It feels like I am doing the inquiry. But then I look and it seems more like awareness is doing it or it feels like the inquiry is just being done, there is just looking. But even when I say “there is just looking”, there is always the feeling of “me” lurking somewhere, sort of commenting on what’s going on. Even though it’s obvious that that “me” is not doing the inquiry, but just hanging around commenting, the presence of that feeling of me seems to bring up enough doubt so that I feel that the inquiry hasn’t been successful.

The doubt continues. Haha: that’s why I called this thread “Overcoming Doubt”.

[Luchana]

Merry Christmas dear Don!

Let's look here first:

About three times as many thoughts about self as about other. Just thoughts one after another. Hardly any rhyme or reason. Just thoughts. No particular benefit or meaning to them.

You did a very good looking. Yes, thoughts abuot a self, a me are happening more than so called thoughts about "others".

Can you share an example about some of the "other" thought?

Sorry for my delay. I was looking at this all day yesterday as well. You'll probably see from my reply below that I continue to be confused.

Oh, it is ok, no worries about delay. And no worries about the confusion as well. This is so so common.
It will slowly starts to dissolve.. we are meeting soon, so this will also help.


Until our meeting just relax and try to noice the pause/gap between thoughts.
Nothing more.
Many moments during the day even for one minute stop and try to notice the subtle gap between two thoughts.


Let's me know how it goes.

Sending love,
Luchana

[oconnordon]

Can you share an example about some of the "other" thought?

“Other” thoughts were about traffic outside or a memory of something that wasn’t specifically about me or a thought about a YouTube video I had just been watching. “Self” thoughts are usually about me and my life and what I need to do next and how I’m basically doing it all wrong, and so on!

Many moments during the day even for one minute stop and try to notice the subtle gap between two thoughts.

I was listening to one of Angelo’s meditations today, looking for the next thought. Often, it seems quite confusing: lots of apparent thoughts; don’t know what’s really going on. But this time, I noticed the thought “I don’t know what’s going on” or “I’m doing this wrong”. And I felt like the “I” who is wrong. Then there was the thought “This is interesting; I’ve seen something here”. Then the thought “I must apply this understanding in my meditation in future”. (Not right now, of course; in the future.). Then the thought “In the meantime, I’m going to tell someone about my recent discovery of the ‘first thought’”. How interesting. Three or four thoughts later and I’m completely distracted on a thought train about talking to someone in the future. It feels like there’s a lot of energy in that mechanism that wants to distract me and send me into thought and away from the present moment. I keep going back to it and it keeps pushing me away into distraction. But it’s interesting to watch it happen. I can almost observe the “I” who can’t do this as an object. It’s like a thought contraction or a tight feeling. I do have to keep going back and back to it, though. The determination (habit) to keep getting distracted seems to be very strong. But the contention that “I can’t do it” is interesting, since it’s the thoughts around that that keep distracting me from the present. I keep feeling into the energy around that distraction habit to see it more clearly. Some of the energy of it is a bit like I want to imagine talking to someone about this in the future and not stay here on my own. It's like an energy of wanting connection with others. They're imaginary, thought-created others, of course. But that feels like the energy of it.

[Luchana]

Hi Don.

“Other” thoughts were about traffic outside or a memory of something that wasn’t specifically about me or a thought about a YouTube video I had just been watching. “Self” thoughts are usually about me and my life and what I need to do next and how I’m basically doing it all wrong, and so on!

"I" have been watching you tube video


It may seems that this thought is about something else, not about me, but it is actually connected with me, for I'm wanting this video. It refers back to me.


So upon closer looking the seemingly "other" thoughts "" are also about me , just in a hidden way.

Actually ALL thoughts are referring back to me.

How does it feel to see that?

I was listening to one of Angelo’s meditations today, looking for the next thought. Often, it seems quite confusing: lots of apparent thoughts; don’t know what’s really going on. But this time, I noticed the thought “I don’t know what’s going on” or “I’m doing this wrong”. And I felt like the “I” who is wrong. Then there was the thought “This is interesting; I’ve seen something here”. Then the thought “I must apply this understanding in my meditation in future”. (Not right now, of course; in the future.). Then the thought “In the meantime, I’m going to tell someone about my recent discovery of the ‘first thought’”. How interesting. Three or four thoughts later and I’m completely distracted on a thought train about talking to someone in the future. It feels like there’s a lot of energy in that mechanism that wants to distract me and send me into thought and away from the present moment.

Wonderful Don!
Yes, there was a moment of cathing the thoughts and noticing the energy in this mechanism.
Keep noticing that.

Look also here
Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?




Sending love,
Luchana

Sending love,
Luchana

[oconnordon]

Actually ALL thoughts are referring back to me.

How does it feel to see that?

I’m not sure if I fully see this. But maybe I do. If I look around now, I see objects. I can name some of the objects. Is naming the objects thinking? There is sometimes a seeing of things prior to naming, but that’s not always clear.

If I notice thoughts starting, I’d say they’re basically always a story about me. I think this; I’m feeling that; I’m doing this wrong; I got distracted … and so on.

If I look for identity, it seems to be in a thought or a feeling. Even though it moves around, the contention that it’s the same identity persists. Even though I sort of see through the identity and it fades away, it comes back.

Even if I see that the thoughts or feelings aren’t what I am, there is an additional thought that says “You must keep believing that those thoughts are true”. So I pay attention to who believes that thought. There doesn’t appear to be anybody. But there’s a real hardness - almost anger or determination - to the thought that I must continue believing thoughts.

There’s also a more hidden thought that says “I don’t want to stop believing these thoughts”. The reason I can see for that is that there is a belief that without these stories, I will be alone. “I” will be alone. Haha. Feels scary, though. Big addiction to thinking here.

Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?

No. But it feels like I am believing a thought, not that I am a thought. It feels like I am a feeling of “me”. Does the feeling of me experience a thought? It’s hard to see. It seems like the feeling of me arises as a reaction to thoughts - when they are believed. So it seems like a thought is being believed by me, when in fact a thought triggers a feeling and there is some kind of identification with the feeling as “my feeling” or feeling like me. It’s like I feel like the one who believes thoughts.

There’s also a kind of atmosphere of dread sometimes. It’s like “I” feel that I can’t escape from confusion, like thought has me captured and I can’t see out from it. Like the thought is “You’re in a story and you can’t even see what story that is.” “You feel like a person already; now any thought that wants to can get you and lead you wherever it wants.” As if a thought can want something. But the fear is sometimes like that; the fear that thoughts can take me over and I won’t be able to stop it unless I keep really vigilant.

But, yeah, what seems like “me” seems to be come kind of contraction of thought or feeling that I have labeled “me” … even though it changes all the time. And yet the belief that this thought contraction or feeling is me is quite persistent, even though the evidence shows that it changes all the time, and so on.

[Luchana]

Hi Don,

I’m not sure if I fully see this. But maybe I do. If I look around now, I see objects. I can name some of the objects. Is naming the objects thinking? There is sometimes a seeing of things prior to naming, but that’s not always clear.

If I notice thoughts starting, I’d say they’re basically always a story about me. I think this; I’m feeling that; I’m doing this wrong; I got distracted … and so on.

Yes, thought are always refer back to me.
The question is - is there something real called "me" at experienced when looked at?
Or only thoughts about "me"?

There’s also a more hidden thought that says “I don’t want to stop believing these thoughts”. The reason I can see for that is that there is a belief that without these stories, I will be alone. “I” will be alone. Haha. Feels scary, though. Big addiction to thinking here.

All right, notice the scary part?
What is scary?
What might happen when the believe in thoughts is no more?

Watch carefully what kind of images/thoughts will come.


Sending love and see you later.

Luchana

[oconnordon]

Yes, thought are always refer back to me.
The question is - is there something real called "me" at experienced when looked at?
Or only thoughts about "me"?

There seems to be a feeling of me. I haven’t got to the end of it yet. I find it hard to keep my attention from getting distracted and feeling confused. Who is confused? Haha. I don’t know yet. Right now, I have a lot of fear. I’m going to say something about that below.

All right, notice the scary part?
What is scary?
What might happen when the believe in thoughts is no more?

Watch carefully what kind of images/thoughts will come.

Recently, there is a lot of fear. All kinds of distracting thoughts, stories, etc. Sometimes the thought that I don’t want to give up the stories because I will be alone, as I said previously. It’s like the people in my stories are the most real people. Or maybe because I stupidly believe that changing my thoughts about real life will change real life. I’m annoyed that I keep holding on to unreal stories about things and not letting them go. But maybe that’s just a habitual reaction, trying to distract myself from fear that I feel?

Anyway, I sometimes feel this fear. And I try just to feel it as a sensation. It’s like nausea, dizziness, spinning in the centre of my torso; like my whole body is spinning; like the whole world is spinning; like there’s no foundation to anything. I try just to feel the sensation of it. Sometimes I feel like I might vomit, but I haven't yet. I try not to tell stories about it - but I don’t succeed very well. I ask it what it wants to tell me. It seems just to tell me that it’s afraid, that it’s on its own, that death is inevitable; that there’s nothing anyone can do about it. It’s like a part of me that’s obsessed with death, a part that's sure it's on its own and no-one can help. Sometimes there are thoughts like: did I die one time? Did I go unconscious? Did I choke at some point - maybe around the time of my birth? Sometimes there’s a feeling of choking. I don’t know how to help this part. I ask it what it wants, what would help, etc. It seems determined that death is what it’s afraid of and that there’s no solution to that. I don’t know if that’s just thoughts. It feels like dizzy, spinning fear and I don’t know what to do to make progress with it, to help it. Maybe I just need to sit with it. Maybe I’m being impatient, looking for answers, solutions? It's not easy to sit with it, though. It just feels like unending fear of death right now.

[Luchana]

Hi Don,

There seems to be a feeling of me. I haven’t got to the end of it yet. I find it hard to keep my attention from getting distracted and feeling confused. Who is confused? Haha. I don’t know yet. Right now, I have a lot of fear. I’m going to say something about that below.

Recently, there is a lot of fear. All kinds of distracting thoughts, stories, etc. Sometimes the thought that I don’t want to give up the stories because I will be alone, as I said previously. It’s like the people in my stories are the most real people. Or maybe because I stupidly believe that changing my thoughts about real life will change real life. I’m annoyed that I keep holding on to unreal stories about things and not letting them go. But maybe that’s just a habitual reaction, trying to distract myself from fear that I feel?

Thank you for sharing that with me,
Where exactly in the body is that feeling felt?
Bring the attention there.
Stay with it.
is it safe to feel.
What is the sensation protecting?
What is BEHIND the fear?
Look curiously.

I'm with you

Sending love,
Luchana