What is This?

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:34 pm

This was very helpful, thank you.
Do you have a way of working with emotions and things coming up such as this?
I do TRE every day for 15 minutes. Someone suggested a weighted blanket that I might get, and I have a ‘happy light’ plus incense.
Maybe there's a young avva in there that never received love or understanding.
There definitely is.
In other words, the mind takes over and says "It's all meaningless." But that view that things are meaningless is itself meaningless. Any concept, story, or thought is itself a trap, if that makes sense.
This is very helpful. Thank you.

Is it possible at all to come to an intellectual understanding at all?
Can understanding how the self was made in the first place help in realisation that it is made up, that there is no such thing?
Does fetter work require thinking?

The mind is much calmer today. All feelings are allowed to be. There is an attempt to avoid reactivity, judgements, and labelling - those are not allowed to be - is that the right path? To place attention on the here and now. On direct experience, rather than thinking, although thoughts are allowed. But who is doing all this?
Do you think it is necessary to realise that I have been wrongly identifying with the objects of experience (body, mind, thoughts, feelings, speech and actions)? Is it important to keep asking the questions ‘Is there a self that is experiencing or is there only experiencing?’, ‘Is there a self that is thinking, doing, or there is just thinking and doing?’

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Bluejay
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Re: What is This?

Postby Bluejay » Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:45 pm

This is very helpful. Thank you.
👍
I do TRE every day for 15 minutes. Someone suggested a weighted blanket that I might get, and I have a ‘happy light’ plus incense.
That's great. TRE is excellent. The key really is to fully feel and welcome everything, even the resistance and not wanting to feel a certain way.
Is it possible at all to come to an intellectual understanding at all?
Can understanding how the self was made in the first place help in realisation that it is made up, that there is no such thing?
Does fetter work require thinking?
No, understanding in the mind only adds to knowledge. It does nothing to break the illusion.

There's no need to even consider fetter work at this stage, since we are simply looking into the separate self. But to answer your question, thinking is not required in the sense that we are trying to get answer through thinking.

Thinking can only reflect the senses are thought. Now, thinking can be used in an analytical way to inquire, but that's just asking questions and then looking in direct experience.
The mind is much calmer today. All feelings are allowed to be. There is an attempt to avoid reactivity, judgements, and labelling - those are not allowed to be - is that the right path?
If you are suppressing those then that is not helpful, because they are still there. Instead of not allowing, look for who or what is reacting, judging, and labeling. Is there someone in there doing it?

There may be a feeling like there's someone judging, so then you look. What makes up that feeling?

Here is the separate the senses inquiry again for your convenience:

When there is a sense of self, separate it into the senses that are involved, and inquire into each sense.

For example, let's say I feel a sense of self behind the eyes, and there's a thought 'this is me'. I would inquire:

Sense of self behind the eyes = sensation = are these sensations the self?
Thought 'this is me' = thought = is this thought the self?
Image of self behind the eyes = thought = is this image the self?

Objections will likely rise up. If so, keep inquiring into those, such as 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here'.

Thought 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here' = thought = is that thought the self?

Then maybe there's a feeling/contraction in the chest, so you inquire into that. Are those sensations the self? Where is it?

If you end up in a quiet place, rest there. Remember, no answer is the answer. There is no answer possible from thought. This needs to be felt into and repeated over and over.

To place attention on the here and now. On direct experience, rather than thinking, although thoughts are allowed. But who is doing all this?
Yes, who is it? Can it happening by itself, like a flower growing or wind blowing? Does there have to be a doer?
Do you think it is necessary to realise that I have been wrongly identifying with the objects of experience (body, mind, thoughts, feelings, speech and actions)? Is it important to keep asking the questions ‘Is there a self that is experiencing or is there only experiencing?’, ‘Is there a self that is thinking, doing, or there is just thinking and doing?’
If there is the sense that you are in control, deciding, intending, and so on, then you keep looking until it clicks. Does that answer your question?

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:11 pm

There's no need to even consider fetter work at this stage, since we are simply looking into the separate self.
Isn’t the separate self the first fetter?
Thinking can only reflect the senses are thought.
I didn’t understand this sentence.
Instead of not allowing, look for who or what is reacting, judging, and labeling. Is there someone in there doing it?
Yes. Of course. Good idea.
When there is a sense of self, separate it into the senses that are involved, and inquire into each sense.

For example, let's say I feel a sense of self behind the eyes, and there's a thought 'this is me'. I would inquire:

Sense of self behind the eyes = sensation = are these sensations the self?
Thought 'this is me' = thought = is this thought the self?
Image of self behind the eyes = thought = is this image the self?

Objections will likely rise up. If so, keep inquiring into those, such as 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here'.

Thought 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here' = thought = is that thought the self?

Then maybe there's a feeling/contraction in the chest, so you inquire into that. Are those sensations the self? Where is it?

If you end up in a quiet place, rest there. Remember, no answer is the answer. There is no answer possible from thought. This needs to be felt into and repeated over and over.
Yes, this is helpful.

I will keep looking. I have found the guided meditations of Michael Taft, and they are very good for deconstructing the sense of self.
I need to look at triggers during the day. One day there are no triggers at all, other days getting triggered all the time. I need to look at who is getting triggered? Who is judging? Who has preferences?
I think the real question for me is this: ‘Is a thought me?’ Because it is so obvious that ‘I’ is just a concept, a thought, and not real. But a thought cannot be me. What is this thought referring to at all? I think what I am calling ‘me’ is the sense of aliveness, a sense of consciousness. Although if I am not my body, then where is the sense of aliveness? Where is a sense of consciousness if not perceiving the world and the thoughts through the body?

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Bluejay
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Re: What is This?

Postby Bluejay » Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:35 pm

Isn’t the separate self the first fetter?
Yes, what I meant was that it's better to focus solely on separate self inquiry here :)
I didn’t understand this sentence.
The content of thought is a reflection of senses (see, hear, feel, smell, taste) or thought (knowledge, experience, memory).

It is always late to the party so to speak, and never direct experience.
I will keep looking. I have found the guided meditations of Michael Taft, and they are very good for deconstructing the sense of self.
I need to look at triggers during the day. One day there are no triggers at all, other days getting triggered all the time. I need to look at who is getting triggered? Who is judging? Who has preferences?
I think the real question for me is this: ‘Is a thought me?’ Because it is so obvious that ‘I’ is just a concept, a thought, and not real. But a thought cannot be me. What is this thought referring to at all? I think what I am calling ‘me’ is the sense of aliveness, a sense of consciousness. Although if I am not my body, then where is the sense of aliveness? Where is a sense of consciousness if not perceiving the world and the thoughts through the body?
This sounds good. Keep noticing where there is a sense of doership and then deconstruct it.

A thought can arise that says "I want that," even after seeing there is no separate self.

Are you perceiving something through the body, what is the body in direct experience? Do you see perception of the world happening through something?

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:34 pm

I am out walking in town. It is so obvious that there is a moving picture here, but I am not here. As if I am dissolved in this picture. There are noises, smells, sensations, and thoughts, but there is no-one doing anything here. But the thoughts can still suck in attention.

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Bluejay
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Re: What is This?

Postby Bluejay » Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:41 pm

Yes, it can be like that. Even when thoughts suck in attention, is it clear that they are not referring to anyone/anything?

You may find these two videos interesting:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:50 pm

The questions appear again and again in mind, 'who is seeing? who is hearing? who is walking?' etc. but they are all completely meaningless.

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:46 pm

Even when thoughts suck in attention, is it clear that they are not referring to anyone/anything?
I would like to say yes, but no. They still refer to me, just as usual. Everything is the same. I can’t see any realisation or recognition of any kind.

The only thing that is different now is that I feel like the desperate seeking phase, the longing, the craving, is over. I am back to the avva before the whole seeking started. As if nothing has changed, nothing has happened. Of course that is impossible. Something has happened but I don’t know what. I know I still have a lot of emotional and trigger work to do. The old avva was irritable, and I can feel the same irritation coming back now. It is showing me what I need to concentrate on now.

Perhaps it’s time to end this thread. I would like to thank you for your help, your questions, your support. For being there for me every day, replying to my messages immediately.
Thank you, Henri. May you reach Nirvana!

avva

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Bluejay
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Re: What is This?

Postby Bluejay » Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:50 pm

That's interesting. You're the second person I'm guiding that suddenly wants to stop. And this hasn't happened before.

Now, if you want to stop, that is of course perfectly fine.

However, LU is about seeing that there is no separate self, and as you noted, you aren't done, so if you want to continue, I'm here.

If I don't hear from you, I'll assume you decided to stop, in which case, I wish you all the best. I've enjoyed our conversation :)

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Sat Dec 16, 2023 2:14 pm

I feel burnt out. Tired. Exhausted. Sad. Disappointed. Irritable. Ready to give up. What is there to do? How do you see this?

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Bluejay
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Re: What is This?

Postby Bluejay » Sat Dec 16, 2023 2:22 pm

From my own experience, two paths:

1) A break is needed to give your body some time to integrate the changes. Even beginning to glimpse the illusion of separate self can bring up trauma, memories and feelings. This can feel like you're going backwards. During the break, not doing any inquiry, but feeling everything. This will often go back and forth. One day you will feel calm and great, then the next wave comes and you're confused, tired, sad, irritable, and so on. Some kind of trauma focused therapy may also be advised (EMDR, for example, is excellent).

2) Keep inquiring while feeling everything. This is good if you are falling into meaninglessness and nihilism. In other words, the opposite belief is in play where you think there is no separate self, but the realization is not complete.

I'd recommend you take a week break from everything, then see if you want to continue or not.

Don't make any decisions while you are tired, exhausted, sad, and so on, because usually that only leads to wanting to stop and escape everything.

So take a break. Things that may help are taking a shower, a warm bath, cleaning, gardening, eating heavier foods, exercise, stretching, and anything that is grounding and relaxing.

I am here if you have any questions.

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Sat Dec 16, 2023 2:28 pm

All right. I will take a week break. Thank you.

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:25 am

Hi Henri
It’s been a very emotional few days. What a mistake to think that it can be stopped for a week. There is this strong unpleasant feeling in the stomach area most of the time. It doesn’t have a label. It comes when the thoughts about not understanding anything appear. It could be called frustration or confusion, but that’s just the top layer. There’s more underneath that doesn’t get labelled. All feelings are accepted and welcome. Sometimes it’s strong nausea, as if there was an overwhelming feeling of disgust. There’s a lot of crying, and the mind doesn’t understandand what it’s all about. It’s frantically trying to be useful, to guide, to analyse, to understand. ‘Maybe this is the truth, maybe that.’ But nothing makes sense any more. Even giving up doesn’t make sense. Who would do that? Who is feeling burnt out and exhausted? Who wants to stop? All just ego tricks. This cannot be stopped. The emotions are so strong. They demand attention. There is no sitting quietly meditating any more. It’s just allowing this feeling in the stomach to be and crying about nothing.
Thoughts come talking about ‘me’ all the time. After being lost in them for a while there is a realisation that thoughts were happening. Then the clean-up crew comes. There is a recognition that the clean-up crew just happens on its own and that there is no ‘I’ that could disbelieve or dismiss the thoughts. There is no ‘I’ that could keep the thought ‘The ‘I’ doesn’t exist’ in mind so as not to believe and get lost in the thoughts.
Avva had a session with Ilona a few days ago, which helped. Avva has also booked a session with a therapist to go through the unworthiness issue. There is an attempt on avva’s part to be happy and optimistic during the day, but the feeling in the stomach comes back again and tears are pouring. There is no doubt in the mind any more about the nonexistence of the ‘I’ but belief in it happens too on its own. It’s futile trying to control beliefs. There is not even anyone who could give up control.
'But you're not done yet' a thought is shouting inthe mind. And belief happens on its own.

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Bluejay
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Re: What is This?

Postby Bluejay » Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:44 am

Hello!
All feelings are accepted and welcome.
Great. This is key!
Avva had a session with Ilona a few days ago, which helped. Avva has also booked a session with a therapist to go through the unworthiness issue. There is an attempt on avva’s part to be happy and optimistic during the day, but the feeling in the stomach comes back again and tears are pouring. There is no doubt in the mind any more about the nonexistence of the ‘I’ but belief in it happens too on its own. It’s futile trying to control beliefs.
Happy to hear this. This is an excellent time to see a therapist.
There is not even anyone who could give up control.
Exactly. Notice the resistance to the feeling in the stomach, and look for who/what is resisting or suffering. Not with a goal of finding anything, but just looking.

Perhaps you might like an article I wrote a few years back: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/dark-night-of-the-soul/

These kind of periods of intense emotion surfacing come and go. I'm going through it myself now after a shift. It can be very tough, but I've found it helpful to take a few breaks during the day to just lie down and welcome/surrender fully/etc.

Give yourself space. If you feel like it, allow yourself to distract for a bit with a movie, book, or whatever is enjoyable.

I don't know if I mentioned this, but things like taking a long walk, cleaning, gardening, eating heavier foods can also be calming.

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avva
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Re: What is This?

Postby avva » Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:36 pm

When avva’s parents died two years ago, she went into a depression. For a year she took antidepressants. She started reading books about positive thinking, forgiveness, and unconditional acceptance. She started practising these and she could stop taking pills. She was really happy for about 8 months. Then these feelings about unworthiness, guilt, and shame started to surface, and the grief was coming back, and the irritability. Now together with frustration, confusion, and hopelessness. It feels like the worst depression ever.
Avva is looking at those books/ideas again about positive thinking, forgiveness, unconditional acceptance. Is it possible to practise positive thinking when you don’t believe in the thinker? Can you forgive and accept when you are not the doer? Those books warned against a victim mentality. They talked about being the creator of your reality. How to reconcile belief in no-self with the practice of positive thinking, forgiveness, and unconditional acceptance?

Code: Select all

Notice the resistance to the feeling in the stomach, and look for who/what is resisting or suffering. Not with a goal of finding anything, but just looking.
There must be resistance, otherwise there wouldn't be suffering. Consciously it is 'I accept, I surrender', but that 'I' always gets a question mark.


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