Revisiting the past

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter
I'll reply when you answer all
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

Let’s explore “others” a bit more...
When you touch “another” are there two sensations “you” and “another” or one labelled “me touching another” (or “bumping into high school students in the hallway”)? Are others outside of sensing? Where is the border that marks where sensing ends and "other" begin?

It's all one sensation, just the thought labels making it seem separate. Others are just another kind of sensation + labeling.

Also, is there space where these others exist? What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?

No difference. No space, no time. Sometimes there is a story about experiencing it fully. But not in direct experience, in which there is only what's happening here and now.

Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced?

No, just my sensations and thought labels about them.

Can you directly experience "others"?

Also no, stories about "them" are just stories.

Are others somehow outside of seeing? What is the difference between seeing an ‘stranger’, seeing an ’enemy’, and seeing a ‘friend’ in DE – they are all colour with different thought content, right?

Yes the only difference is the thought content about them. And the different sensations of shapes and colors.

How is one colour different from another in DE if all there is to colour is seeing?

That is an interesting question to try to answer according to the"rules" of direct experience. Maybe the sensation of blue is different than the sensation of red. At least in thoughts.

Can ‘a person’ be found in actual experience?

Only sensations can be found.

Thoughts are drawing an imaginary line in the sand, right? What is that “me” that negotiates reality? Thoughts all the way.
Remember, when you have two opposing views (i.e. view of reality) you have to check by looking, not by thinking how this is too absurd and it doesn’t fit with your precious old view of reality. This is plain confirmation bias in action - if a new idea does not fit with the core beliefs, it is discarded. To “reduce the resistance’, all thoughts need to painstakingly be examined one by one as they appear in order for thoughts to self-organise and form a new core of beliefs.

Yes, also only exists in thoughts...cannot be expressed, even calling it ineffable is a label, and it is that which cannot be labeled.
This sounds to me like a quote for “awareness” or “reality” – “cannot be expressed” , “even calling it ineffable is a label”, but let me remind you we are talking about the “sense of self” here. The “sense of self” is a plain label that points to nothing. It points to non-existent stuff. It cannot be found anywhere. It's fiction, plain imagination. This label has mistakenly been used to describe sensations and colours, etc, which already have labels – like “breathing”, “heartbeat”, etc.

Is that clear???Can you see that?

I see it, but I guess I don't fully grok it.

Still seems like mind/word games to me though. Even though nothing is supposed to happen, I still have a heaviness about me and feel like it is a struggle to go beyond just understanding concepts and just be.

The “heaviness” is there because the story is not challenged. How is this “heaviness” experienced? Do you find it difficult to walk because you are much heavier? Or this heaviness exists only in thoughts that haven’t been checked?

Sometimes it is both, physical tiredness seems correlated with being bogged down in selfing thoughts.

Again, are you doing the being or not being? Do you need to do anything in order to be? Do you need to maintain being?

Being is just what's happening. I don't need to do anything. It is self maintaing.

Being, peace are already here underneath all the stories. Instead of endlessly reaching for ideas, concepts and explanations, just let it all go, and see what is here now silently, without words. Notice the freshness, intimacy, immediateness, and rawness of THIS. Seeing is wordless, and immediate. The taste of chocolate is immediately and silently (wordlessly) known, since it is not conceptual. As soon as the label ‘taste of chocolate’ is added, the immediacy of experience is veiled by conceptualization.

I am hopeful that I will be able to understand this fully without conceptions someday

Thank You
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

In theory, no-self to protect, nothing that lasts or persists or matters. But resistance seems to be happening in the story and in the sense that it is an invlountary occurence, yes it's happening. Non-resistance sounds like bliss.

In theory? And how is in experience? Any entities seen, heard, …?
Resistance is a tool for discovering stories that need to be checked for accuracy. So what are you waiting for? It will appear until the stories are checked. Are they true?

Conceptually they are sensations+thoughts all happening. Peopling....I can't even really see it as a belief or an assumption. Yeah, it's all one mind, nowhere and everywhere.

Again, conceptually? How are they experienced then? Ironically it is just the other way around. Conceptually, they are experienced as separate beings, but in reality there are only sensations, colours, sounds…

What is mind and where can it be found?

Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced?

No, just my sensations and thought labels about them.

What makes the sensations yours? Are there also my sensations or that is an assumption?

The “sense of self” is a plain label that points to nothing. It points to non-existent stuff. It cannot be found anywhere. It's fiction, plain imagination. This label has mistakenly been used to describe sensations and colours, etc, which already have labels – like “breathing”, “heartbeat”, etc.
Is that clear???Can you see that?

I see it, but I guess I don't fully grok it.

What will take for you to grok it?

Sometimes it is both, physical tiredness seems correlated with being bogged down in selfing thoughts.

How is this known? Seems? Is there an arrow pointing from one to the other in DE?

Being is just what's happening. I don't need to do anything. It is self maintaing.

Exactly! So where is the problem with THIS? No need for anything to be done - it all takes care of itself

I am hopeful that I will be able to understand this fully without conceptions someday

Haha! What kind of understanding is that? Understanding exists only in thought content? Is there any meaning without thought content??? Peace and joy are found when trying to understand THIS in any way is dropped :)

The taste of chocolate is immediately and silently (wordlessly) known, since it is not conceptual. As soon as the label ‘taste of chocolate’ is added, the immediacy of experience is veiled by conceptualization.

Let me give you another example…
I recently tried a new fruit for me which the locals call “sour soap”. If I give you a description – the fruit is fragrant, sweet and sour, fleshy, and soft – did you manage to experience and get an idea what the fruit tastes like?
How can you know what I am talking about if you haven’t tasted that fruit? The description of experience is no help when it comes to the sense of experiencing. We can talk about tasting the sour soap, but it’s all conceptual: ideas about ideas and not the experience that is happening right now. Ideas are good for directing attention, like this: The next time you eat a fruit, remember to experience the taste fully, as if you are tasting it for the first time. Dive into the experience, noticing all and forgetting all you know about the fruit. Savour every bite of it. Or simply LOOK! Do you see the difference between talking about the taste of a fruit (trying to understand it) and tasting it? Thinking would not stop (just because its emptiness is seen) but notice what else is there, look at what is here instead of look for what is not.
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

In theory? And how is in experience? Any entities seen, heard, …?

Also in experience, no self that lasts, just changeable thoughts, and the story of the changable body, although in direct experience this body I am experiencing at the moment is the only one. And even that is a story.

So what are you waiting for? It will appear until the stories are checked. Are they true?

I'm not waiting for anything. It just seems to come when it comes, for noone, nothing...

Again, conceptually? How are they experienced then?

In direct experience there is only what's happening in the sensations of typing and the thought labels around it.

What is mind and where can it be found?

It is nothing and everything, nowhere and everywhere. However(see, no but or seems)in my experience it is the thoughts in the area of the head, that is indistinguishable from mind, so for all intents and purposes it is me!

What makes the sensations yours? Are there also my sensations or that is an assumption?

Yes when you put it that way, it is just sensation. Belonging to no one, and it can't be known if even there is a you to be experiencing sensations.

What will take for you to grok it?

I don't honestly know> Seems I'm stuck at check with no check mate because I keep wiggling out of resolving it, and not on purpose. It just doesn't seem clear.

Exactly! So where is the problem with THIS? No need for anything to be done - it all takes care of itself

No problem exactly...just that seeking continues and it is experienced as waiting for something to shift, change, open, pop...etc.

Haha! What kind of understanding is that? Understanding exists only in thought content? Is there any meaning without thought content??? Peace and joy are found when trying to understand THIS in any way is dropped :)

Yes, it is clear that the attempt to understand using the mind and thought is a hindrance.

If I give you a description – the fruit is fragrant, sweet and sour, fleshy, and soft – did you manage to experience and get an idea what the fruit tastes like?
How can you know what I am talking about if you haven’t tasted that fruit?

It is a perfect analogy. I can't experience the taste directly, but in my mind I'm thinking of all the fruits I know of that meet those description, and creating a sense of the taste. In the same way I imagine I create the sense of myself from ideas, analogies, descriptions, thoughts etc....It can't be experienced directly, just indirectly.

Or simply LOOK! Do you see the difference between talking about the taste of a fruit (trying to understand it) and tasting it? Thinking would not stop (just because its emptiness is seen) but notice what else is there, look at what is here instead of look for what is not.

I do see the difference between talking about the taste and experiencing it directly. Maybe I've been looking for what it isn't instead of what it is?

Thank you
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

It is nothing and everything, nowhere and everywhere. However(see, no but or seems)in my experience it is the thoughts in the area of the head, that is indistinguishable from mind, so for all intents and purposes it is me!

OK… That’s quite a jump in logic. So what is a “head” in DE and does it have a location? Where is the “area of the head”? If a body is a label for sensations and colours, then the head is also that, right? Do sensations have a location? Do colours have a location? Can a thought come from a sensation? Do thoughts have a location? Where exactly is "nowhere" and "everywhere"? What is the refence point? If it's there there should be sensory information, right? You see when you start asking questions, it all starts to crumble down…
Also are you the thinker of these thoughts? What makes them yours? The same way the sensations are not yours, they are just happening, thoughts are also just happening. How does that make them "you"? They talk about a “I” – to be precise they contain words (pronouns and nouns, and verbs, and adjectives …) and one of them is an “I” BUT:

Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?
Does the label "I" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I?
Does the label "I" know anything about an I?
What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to?

No problem exactly...just that seeking continues and it is experienced as waiting for something to shift, change, open, pop...etc.

So can you explain to me what do you expect the “no self” to feel like? It’s not that there was a self and then there will be no self. In direct experience nothing has changed – there never has been a self or anything of that kind. It has always been a pronoun, a fiction, an illusion. Also there is no one to see the illusion or to be deluded. So what exactly could change but thought content? For thought content to change, there needs to be more looking AT what is here and what is not - mutually exclusive оr exactly the same. What it is here shows a reality that there is no need for a self. Looking FOR happens in thought content and it doesn't give any answers (same old BS), looking AT reveals what is actually here and gives all the "answers". And that looking happens more and more once it starts.
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

OK… That’s quite a jump in logic. So what is a “head” in DE and does it have a location?

In direct experience there is just the sensation of sight and colors and changing perspective emanating from round what is thought of as the eyes. But even that can't be known fully.

Where is the “area of the head”?

Yes as above, it's just what is here at the moment. No where else.

If a body is a label for sensations and colours, then the head is also that, right?

I can see that both head and body are labels and yet the labeling persists.

Do sensations have a location? Do colours have a location?

Also, only in thoughts. In experience there is only here. Everything else is just a concept.

Code: Select all

Can a thought come from a sensation? Do thoughts have a location? Where exactly is "nowhere" and "everywhere"? What is the refence point? If it's there there should be sensory information, right? You see when you start asking questions, it all starts to crumble down…

I'm no longer sure where thoughts come from. They are always happening. Nowhere and everywhere is just an expression of a concept, it also can't be known to exist. Nothing stands up to questions when you really examine it.

Also are you the thinker of these thoughts? What makes them yours? The same way the sensations are not yours, they are just happening, thoughts are also just happening. How does that make them "you"?

Thoughts are happening. A thinker of them isn't known. Just stories, concepts and labels. Not me exactly, but the only thing recognizable that contains the concept of me.
Me is just a concept!

Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?

This rhetorical device invokes the thought, "of course not!"

Does the label "I" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I?

No it's just another kind of label like apple, dog, etc

Does the label "I" know anything about an I?

Ha. No.

What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to?

It refers to the concept of I, not anything that can be found as a "real" I.

So can you explain to me what do you expect the “no self” to feel like?

Just to feel something different from this! It is the ultimate conundrum of not being able to accept "thisness"

So what exactly could change but thought content?

If there is nothing to change except thoughts then why won't they change and give up fighting "reality".

Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

In direct experience there is just the sensation of sight and colors and changing perspective emanating from round what is thought of as the eyes. But even that can't be known fully.

So basically a sensation + a mental image (of a head/eyes) + thoughts about a head/eyes, right?

I'm no longer sure where thoughts come from. They are always happening. Nowhere and everywhere is just an expression of a concept, it also can't be known to exist. Nothing stands up to questions when you really examine it.

“I don’t know” is an answer thoughts don’t like, but it is pointing to the limitations of thought as a describing mechanism – reality vs description.

Also, only in thoughts. In experience there is only here. Everything else is just a concept.

Yes! However even "here" still has some meaning. This inquiry comes down to us learning how to use words more accurately. As the world (your world) is a projection of your mindset, there is great value in becoming aware of unconscious bias. If you limit yourself to describing experience (DE labels), you are in safe territory. Description that is devoid of opinion or judgement. So where exactly is “here” – here still demands a refence point? Do you see that? I’m not trying to be pedantic but that “here” is linked to the “sense of self”. “No location”, “here”, “there” are labels. What are they pointing to?
True nothingness means there is absolutely nothing (no sensory information -zilch). Is that really possible? So to say that there are no sensations and there is nothingness, that's often a subtle thought that is trying to create something. This something could also be called aliveness, presence or I AM, sense of self, but even that is a label, is it not? Is there anything here that is not the senses?
There are also sensations and colours when you close your eyes that don't have a location (unless they are mapped onto an image of the body). So even “no location”/”here” is a sensation, do you notice that, when the labels are stripped?

If there is nothing to change except thoughts then why won't they change and give up fighting "reality".

That’s a very awake thing to ask. That is exactly what is happening. I explained before about thoughts being self-organizing and confirmation bias. The fact that there are doubtful/stubborn thoughts means that there is still quite a lot of “problematic” thoughts that have not been tested vs reality every time they appear. Always ask “Is it true”, “what is actually here". That is how we deal with doubt. Doubt is not solved but dissolved :)

The biggest challenge is the belief that you should somehow now be completely free from stressful thoughts; that without a belief in a “me” as creator of your world, conditioned thoughts and behaviours would simply all drop away. Habit persists, despite having seen through the illusion of a separate self, and continuing to notice that thought tells stories that may not be supported by direct experience is very important. Checking direct experience for proof of what thoughts say is the most useful practice.
Anyway, does the presence of doubtful thoughts point somehow to the existence of a self? Does their presence somehow mean that the illusion of a self is not seen?
In my experience doubt happens when there is a previous general thought tendency to “overanalyze” everything, skepticism, disbelief, distrust to “outside” thought patterns. Also a as result of hesitation in how to deal uncertainty, “indecisiveness”. These patterns are self-organising patterns and they don’t prove anything. Thus, looking in their content does not provide information how to deal with the “problem”. The “solution” comes by looking what is actually here and understanding the emptiness of thoughts in general. Does that make "sense"?
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

So basically a sensation + a mental image (of a head/eyes) + thoughts about a head/eyes, right?

Yes, right.

So where exactly is “here” – here still demands a refence point? Do you see that? I’m not trying to be pedantic but that “here” is linked to the “sense of self”. “No location”, “here”, “there” are labels. What are they pointing to?

I can't find here. It's just an idea. There's just this.

Is that really possible? So to say that there are no sensations and there is nothingness, that's often a subtle thought that is trying to create something. This something could also be called aliveness, presence or I AM, sense of self, but even that is a label, is it not? Is there anything here that is not the senses?

I guess that's why they say everything and nothing. I can only determine what direct experience shows me and that is sensations and thoughts.

So even “no location”/”here” is a sensation, do you notice that, when the labels are stripped?

It's all an idea, even me is just an idea.

Anyway, does the presence of doubtful thoughts point somehow to the existence of a self? Does their presence somehow mean that the illusion of a self is not seen?

No, all thoughts are just a kind of habitual pattern. It's just an illusion that anything like a self that is persistent exists. All the stories about a soul, or a life outside this are just imagination. Like dreams.

The “solution” comes by looking what is actually here and understanding the emptiness of thoughts in general. Does that make "sense"?

I'm still looking at and for what is.

Thank You
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

It's all an idea, even me is just an idea.

Especially the “me” :)

I'm still looking at and for what is.

And that is a life time exploration. But is the illusion of self clear or you need more clarification and pointing?

Have a wonderful Christmas if you are celebrating!
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

And that is a life time exploration. But is the illusion of self clear or you need more clarification and pointing?

In some ways the illusion of self is clear, it is all just thoughts, patterns, habits. But it's still all I've got!

Have a wonderful Christmas if you are celebrating!

Thank You, been busy with family gatherings and also experiencing the melancholy of the Holidays. Hope you had a Merry Christmas too...
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

In some ways the illusion of self is clear, it is all just thoughts, patterns, habits. But it's still all I've got!

Are these yours to have? It all just happens. And now you also “have” a new thought -“LOOK” - which forces these patterns and old thoughts to be checked vs DE. Simple :)
It’s not going to happen in a day, it may take years. The initial realization, though, is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

You see, doubt is a product of expectations – there were probably expectations that seeing through the illusion would somehow be a show stopper. That all unwanted emotions would drop away and there will be bliss and non-stop happiness (or something of that kind). That usually is the sales pitch :). When there are expectations like these, there might not be a registered shift – it is seen what is present but there are thoughts about “more”, “shoulds’” and “should nots”. Expectations are just thoughts, and like any other thought they are also not yours. When expectations are seen as empty as any other thought they are released and peace is found.

Feeling all emotions – unwanted and desired - is the same as having the freedom to live life fully. To experience whatever presents itself, without thinking that it should be different, is priceless. Just look behind the curtain of expectations. Don’t expect to see only the happy side, because that expectation, too, is a prison. The rich fullness includes all.
Here is a poem by Rumi for your enjoyment:

The Guest House
By Jalaluddin Rumi

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honourably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

So if the illusion of self has been seen, is there anything else that you want to explore?
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

Are these yours to have? It all just happens. And now you also “have” a new thought -“LOOK” - which forces these patterns and old thoughts to be checked vs DE. Simple :)

Yes, I am still looking. Every morning I wake up and it seems I've forgotten. I have to reorient myself in this Space-Time interface and remember the story of who and where I am.

But it is all seen as a story now, truly.

It’s not going to happen in a day, it may take years. The initial realization, though, is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

Well time is one of the first stories, so I suppose I have all the time in the world. I don't ever really remember believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy, sadly.

You see, doubt is a product of expectations – there were probably expectations that seeing through the illusion would somehow be a show stopper. That all unwanted emotions would drop away and there will be bliss and non-stop happiness (or something of that kind). That usually is the sales pitch :). When there are expectations like these, there might not be a registered shift – it is seen what is present but there are thoughts about “more”, “shoulds’” and “should nots”. Expectations are just thoughts, and like any other thought they are also not yours. When expectations are seen as empty as any other thought they are released and peace is found.

There doesn't seem to have been a shift at all, just a gradual noticing of beliefs. Although there were and continue to be expectations about something happening that will make my life different or cause my suffering to go away. It does seem like traveling has become a bit lighter though.

Feeling all emotions – unwanted and desired - is the same as having the freedom to live life fully. To experience whatever presents itself, without thinking that it should be different, is priceless. Just look behind the curtain of expectations. Don’t expect to see only the happy side, because that expectation, too, is a prison. The rich fullness includes all.

Yes I seem to have accepted sadness, lonlieness, other blue feelings, as part of the panoply of life. I can see that those feelings come in waves.


Thank You for the Poem. AS I was thinking about it another concept came up. R-u-mi. Are You Me? I have to answer yes to that one.

So if the illusion of self has been seen, is there anything else that you want to explore?

Maybe I will say that the illusion is understood. But seen with clarity, I'm not sure about that.

Thank You
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

Yes, I am still looking. Every morning I wake up and it seems I've forgotten. I have to reorient myself in this Space-Time interface and remember the story of who and where I am.

How exactly are you doing this? Where exactly are you retrieving the needed information to do that? It’s about time you start noticing the stories… What is this thing that wakes up – the “body”, the “mind”? What is this “I” that wakes up and manages the day, forgets? What does it look like? These are the questions you should be asking yourself instead of giving me thought content. We are not interested in thought content here, remember! These are fairy tales that we’ve all heard before. We are interested in DE observations – there are sensations labelled so and so, there are thoughts telling their usual BS…
Somehow there is an expectation that change will happen magically without looking at what is actually in DE.

There doesn't seem to have been a shift at all, just a gradual noticing of beliefs. Although there were and continue to be expectations about something happening that will make my life different or cause my suffering to go away. It does seem like traveling has become a bit lighter though.

Gradual or sudden it is still a shift from previous beliefs, don’t you think so? If time is not an issue, then gradual or sudden is also a story. :)

Thank You for the Poem. AS I was thinking about it another concept came up. R-u-mi. Are You Me? I have to answer yes to that one.

That sounds like a diagnosis, like a conclusion (thinking in progress…). Now you need to describe what this idea (“I am me”) points to. Where is it felt (sensations)? What does that “me” looks like (description)? NO “feels like” and “seems like”!!! Otherwise it’s an illusion – illusions are feels like, seems like – they look like something else. When it is believed (by no one) then it is a delusion. When it is checked, then the illusion is seen. Really simple!
“Feels like” would be a very good indicator of a thought pattern in progress (not interested!!!). Nothing in DE is “feels like” – it’s either here or not – there is a certainty about it – you can see it, hear it, smell it... That uncertainty that comes with “feels like” shows that even in thought logic is not as neat as thought would like it to be. So it jumps to the conclusion directly: OK it feels like it then it must be the case. Do you see the holes in the story?!!! However it has been repeated so many times so it needs more perseverance through looking (evidence) to be discarded. So just make it a point to check with every statement “it feels like I am me” to look - is there an actual mini person inside pulling the threads, where is this me, what does it look like? Are you the body (aka sensations)? Are the owner of the body (aka sensations)? Are you the thinker that is coming up with these statements?
Nothing in day-to day life will change – there never was an “I”. “I” is just a word. What can possibly change? It’s not like the doer is removed and now things are done differently – there NEVER was a doer! You just have a look, you see nothing (please tell me if you’ve seen anything or heard…), and you understand that that there never was anything in the first place – it just seemed like that. The doer was never necessary – things are just happening on their own.
To be honest, it seems like ( :) ) there is an attachment to soapy story of failing, not being good enough…, that’s been repeated so many times and feels so warm and cuddly, that is difficult to drop. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m sorry to be so frank but a I feel a Zen slap is needed here. I can almost feel the “smug satisfaction” when you are saying “I have to answer yes to that one”

Maybe I will say that the illusion is understood. But seen with clarity, I'm not sure about that.

Please explain what the difference is. I can spot an expectation and false beliefs revealing themselves :)

Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

What is this thing that wakes up – the “body”, the “mind”? What is this “I” that wakes up and manages the day, forgets? What does it look like?

I am sorry to keep living in this fairytale, this waking dream. I don't know what it is....it just feels real. It's a story. It's thoughts. It's nothing. The more I try to grasp it the more it slips away like in a dream. I want to wake up, but at the same time, part of me doesn't want to because it seems like disassociation or even death. The loss of the past. And yet the more I hold on the more it slips away anyway.

Where is it felt (sensations)? What does that “me” looks like (description)? NO “feels like” and “seems like”!!! Otherwise it’s an illusion – illusions are feels like, seems like – they look like something else. When it is believed (by no one) then it is a delusion.

I can't feel me anywhere. It is just thoughts. The me is just thoughts about a me. It doesn't exist or happen anywhere except as a kind of delusion. It is a delusion that completely takes over. Who or what does it take over, if there's noone to take over from the start. It's just a play being acted out without an actor.But the actor believes it's the character.

is there an actual mini person inside pulling the threads, where is this me, what does it look like? Are you the body (aka sensations)? Are the owner of the body (aka sensations)? Are you the thinker that is coming up with these statements?

No mini person, no homunculus, as much as I want to find one, it can't be found. Just a bundle of thoughts masquerading as a person. But I'm busy looking at the thoughts, I can't see the screen behind it. There is no thinker, just seemingly in thought.

What can possibly change? It’s not like the doer is removed and now things are done differently – there NEVER was a doer!

Another seemingly. It seems there is an expectation of a moment of Oh wow. It was here all along. A subtle shift in perception during which things become clear.

To be honest, it seems like ( :) ) there is an attachment to soapy story of failing, not being good enough…, that’s been repeated so many times and feels so warm and cuddly, that is difficult to drop. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m sorry to be so frank but a I feel a Zen slap is needed here. I can almost feel the “smug satisfaction” when you are saying “I have to answer yes to that one”

Yes, I agree, there is an attachment, a big one. I need all the slaps I can get. It focuses the mind to have to confront the ugly truth that I really don't want to get out of my comfort zone and see things as they are. It seems like waiting to die. As Tony Parsons puts it"I hope you die soon."

Maybe I will say that the illusion is understood. But seen with clarity, I'm not sure about that.

Please explain what the difference is. I can spot an expectation and false beliefs revealing themselves :)

It feels like low effort to say yet again that it understood intellectually, but not experienced. But that is a succinct way of putting it.

I apologize for the delay, I've been mulling it over again. Thanks for all your time and effort.
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

I am sorry to keep living in this fairytale, this waking dream. I don't know what it is....it just feels real. It's a story. It's thoughts. It's nothing. The more I try to grasp it the more it slips away like in a dream. I want to wake up, but at the same time, part of me doesn't want to because it seems like disassociation or even death. The loss of the past. And yet the more I hold on the more it slips away anyway.

What wants to wake up? Can thoughts be awake??? What can die if it never existed? What can disassociate from life, from THIS??? Can thoughts do that? Is this really happening or it "exists" only as a thought content?

I can't feel me anywhere. It is just thoughts. The me is just thoughts about a me. It doesn't exist or happen anywhere except as a kind of delusion. It is a delusion that completely takes over. Who or what does it take over, if there's noone to take over from the start. It's just a play being acted out without an actor.But the actor believes it's the character.

Can an illusion die? It is as though it is thoughts there is a snake on the road. It is dark. When a torch is pointed to it in the light it’s seen as a rope. The darkness makes the rope appear as a snake and with that a relationship with it, fear of it. But in the light it’s clear that a rope is a rope, it was never a snake, it did not transform, snake was an idea superimposed on the rope. The snake cannot die because it never existed. The rope cannot die also.

In case you didn’t get it: the snake is separate self. Rope is reality. (Life, aliveness, being, THIS). Darkness is not knowing the reality. Light is knowing the reality.
Similarly there is no actor in a story – there is only language – pronouns, verbs, … Can a pronoun/a word think/believe it’s the character???? Can a thought believe? Can a thought think? Or the believing is just a thought pattern?

Another seemingly. It seems there is an expectation of a moment of Oh wow. It was here all along. A subtle shift in perception during which things become clear.

So when you look and see there is nothing there is it not clear that there isn’t anything???

It focuses the mind to have to confront the ugly truth that I really don't want to get out of my comfort zone and see things as they are. It seems like waiting to die. As Tony Parsons puts it"I hope you die soon."

Again what is there to die?? Comfort zone is basically the thoughts resistance to change because it’s presumed effortful (self-organising thing). They eventually do change when the reality is seen - the same way you don't believe that the Earth is flat after seeing the evidence against it. Again no character that is doing the resisting. LOOK! Is there an entity/a mechanism that is doing the pulling away/resisting? What does “resistance” look like (not feels like)? LOOK! There are sensations there, but are they pulling away something from something/resisting?? Resistance is only a story, an indicative one (revealing false beliefs) but still a story. It's a story how THIS should be different. Can THIS be different than what it is?

It feels like low effort to say yet again that it understood intellectually, but not experienced. But that is a succinct way of putting it.

So how can something that never existed be experienced, yet something that is seen that is not there is understood not to be there but not experienced??? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Do you see the contradictiction?
Love
Rali