Hi Sandra,
Thank you! :) The biggest obstacle has been doubt... for sure. Once that was seen something changed.
I don't have anything especial that comes up at the moment so it feels natural to continue with LU's final questions.
Been contemplating your question about how to describe seeing through the illusion of a self to someone who never heard of it.
The first thing that came up was to describe through a metaphor. But after seeing what has helped me, it's simple and clear. Don't spin complex explanations and stories.
What I could say is something similar to - who or what would you be if you didn't believe or identify with the thoughts that you have?
Through investigating and looking deeper into what you take yourself to be - a shift can occur in the way you perceive yourself and reality. When you no longer identify with the character of who you think you are there can be a freedom from suffering.
Much love
S
Tired of searching
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sari! Thank you for your reply.
Take care,
S
How would you explain how to investigate/look deeper, to someone that doesn't understand what you mean with those pointers?Through investigating and looking deeper into what you take yourself to be - a shift can occur in the way you perceive yourself and reality.
Take care,
S
-
Gingerbella
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:41 am
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sandra,
That's a very good question, thank you for pointing this out. In a conversation I would probably explain a bit more than I do here.
To clarify what I mean by looking deeper, I would probably rephrase what I am pointing towards.
Are you the label that you. others and society has given you?
What are you if you remove, peel off all these labels, these thoughts of who you are?
Can you see that those labels are not really a description of what you truly are?
The labels are mind made constructions, thoughts. What is underneath them, what are you without them?
What are you without the label of for example mother, father, sister, partner, friend, the kind one, a human, a lover, the successful one/ the unsuccessful person, the striver, the poor person, the healthy one/unhealthy, the tall/small, the lazy, the hardworking, the CEO or any other title, the educated one/non educated, the victim/the bully… anything that you take yourself to be, to have achieved, all degrees of certificates, the good the Samaritan…etc.
Is there anything underneath all these labels, that is not a label of any kind? Are you the thoughts you are having?
By looking deeper I mean to ask yourself if what you take yourself to be is really true.
Take one label at a time, one story at a time.
For example: I am a 57-year-old teacher living in Sweden.
When asking myself who I am and investigating the assumptions and labels I take myself to be, I can see that 57 years is a label, a thought - When looking here and now there is no proof of that.
I cannot see that there is anything else than my thoughts saying this is true.
There is no direct experience of being 57 years unless I use what I've been told by someone else. The same way with me being a teacher or living in Sweden. There is nothing saying in my direct seeing that I am a teacher nor living in Sweden unless I believe my thoughts.
I see these are labels, thoughts of something that don't have an existence by themselves - unless the labels and thoughts are believed in.
I hope this helps and is a bit more clarifying.
Thank you
S
That's a very good question, thank you for pointing this out. In a conversation I would probably explain a bit more than I do here.
To clarify what I mean by looking deeper, I would probably rephrase what I am pointing towards.
Are you the label that you. others and society has given you?
What are you if you remove, peel off all these labels, these thoughts of who you are?
Can you see that those labels are not really a description of what you truly are?
The labels are mind made constructions, thoughts. What is underneath them, what are you without them?
What are you without the label of for example mother, father, sister, partner, friend, the kind one, a human, a lover, the successful one/ the unsuccessful person, the striver, the poor person, the healthy one/unhealthy, the tall/small, the lazy, the hardworking, the CEO or any other title, the educated one/non educated, the victim/the bully… anything that you take yourself to be, to have achieved, all degrees of certificates, the good the Samaritan…etc.
Is there anything underneath all these labels, that is not a label of any kind? Are you the thoughts you are having?
By looking deeper I mean to ask yourself if what you take yourself to be is really true.
Take one label at a time, one story at a time.
For example: I am a 57-year-old teacher living in Sweden.
When asking myself who I am and investigating the assumptions and labels I take myself to be, I can see that 57 years is a label, a thought - When looking here and now there is no proof of that.
I cannot see that there is anything else than my thoughts saying this is true.
There is no direct experience of being 57 years unless I use what I've been told by someone else. The same way with me being a teacher or living in Sweden. There is nothing saying in my direct seeing that I am a teacher nor living in Sweden unless I believe my thoughts.
I see these are labels, thoughts of something that don't have an existence by themselves - unless the labels and thoughts are believed in.
I hope this helps and is a bit more clarifying.
Thank you
S
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sari! Thanks again.
And if someone would ask you *here and now, what do you do to know that a separate self isn't real?* what would be your answer?
Take care,
S
And if someone would ask you *here and now, what do you do to know that a separate self isn't real?* what would be your answer?
Take care,
S
-
Gingerbella
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:41 am
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sandra,
I would put attention into the senses and thoughts. And look if a self can exist in any other form than in beliefs, labels, thoughts, memories, stories - all mind created stuff without a truth.
Ask myself if there is anything else that can be observed after seeing through the thoughts that takes the credit for what is occurring. If not believing the thoughts, labels, memories, stories - is there a self to be observed or found?
If not believing the thoughts that are added to what is felt in the body, heard, seen, tasted, smelled, what is left?
Is there anything that can be a self then? I continue to investigate my direct experience - without adding the labels and thoughts of what is happening.
For example putting attention in the feet. There is a sensation happening, The feet are a label added by the mind. Without the thoughts of what it is, there is no one owning the sensation nor the feet.
There is just a sensation happening.
I observe that the owner of the sensation is another thought. My feet is a thought. A self is not found that is not connected with a thought. Beyond thoughts nothing shows up. It becomes silent.
Without thoughts and identification - hearing is happening, seeing is happening, sensations are happening. No agency. No self.
Thank you
S
I would put attention into the senses and thoughts. And look if a self can exist in any other form than in beliefs, labels, thoughts, memories, stories - all mind created stuff without a truth.
Ask myself if there is anything else that can be observed after seeing through the thoughts that takes the credit for what is occurring. If not believing the thoughts, labels, memories, stories - is there a self to be observed or found?
If not believing the thoughts that are added to what is felt in the body, heard, seen, tasted, smelled, what is left?
Is there anything that can be a self then? I continue to investigate my direct experience - without adding the labels and thoughts of what is happening.
For example putting attention in the feet. There is a sensation happening, The feet are a label added by the mind. Without the thoughts of what it is, there is no one owning the sensation nor the feet.
There is just a sensation happening.
I observe that the owner of the sensation is another thought. My feet is a thought. A self is not found that is not connected with a thought. Beyond thoughts nothing shows up. It becomes silent.
Without thoughts and identification - hearing is happening, seeing is happening, sensations are happening. No agency. No self.
Thank you
S
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sari!
Once again thank you for your answer! I can't think of any more questions to ask you, so let's move to the 'final questions'.
Answer them in your own time, no need to answer all of them in the same day. I will catch up with you when you have responded to all 6 questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days with some examples.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Take care,
S
Once again thank you for your answer! I can't think of any more questions to ask you, so let's move to the 'final questions'.
Answer them in your own time, no need to answer all of them in the same day. I will catch up with you when you have responded to all 6 questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days with some examples.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Take care,
S
-
Gingerbella
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:41 am
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sandra,
Thank you for these final questions. I will answer them in a couple of different installments.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no entity, an I, a "me" anywhere, not in any shape or form. I can see in the here and now but if it's not here and now, then I can't see that it ever existed. This now is all I can see and experience and here there is no entity. If it doesn't exist here and now, it doesn't exist at all. This moment, this here is all that is and ever has been. In the absence of thoughts I cannot find time. Time seems to be a construction of the mind and when that is seen there is a realization that time does not exist - so there could never be a self anywhere nor anythime.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
When a thought is believed to be who I am, or believing thoughts to be me. There is separateness. Thoughts are happening, they are not the self. There is no self. No one is making the thoughts to happen.
A metaphor that can perhaps describe the process (if there is such a thing) - from the beginning there is no separation. There has never been.
On that, pieces of different kinds are added, of impressions, thoughts, memories, both my own, my surroundings, my parents, society, etc... they stick on and become like islands of papier-mache identity tags. These pieces create what I will refer to as me, as Sari.
The older I get, the more of these pieces are added, one piece overlapping the other, a huge blanket of infinite thought in all its forms.
The way I heard my parents call me, with my name, with names about who I am, how I behave, that I am separate from them, from my parents, from others, from everything, I am told how to behave , what I like to do, what others like me to do, what is expected of me and so on…
All these thoughts, these impressions, these feelings, sensations provide the basis for what I then begin to identify myself to be, this is Sari. She likes to draw, she doesn't like chocolate, when she is nice she gets Saturday sweets, Sari starts to reflect on all this and it leads to more thoughts and what she sees herself to be.
So a blissful mixture of all the names, illusions, memories, thoughts that she begins to think about herself, what is a good person, what is not liked by those around her. The character "I am Sari" builds on and becomes more complex with a complex train of thought... ad infinitum.
Thoughts that talk to other thoughts, thoughts that paint pictures, thoughts that seem to be who Sari makes herself out to be.
Along the way, the ability to discern that the thoughts are not me disappears.
Life is now governed by thoughts and they are usually not questioned but taken for absolute truths.
When I was a child I lived much more in the present, in what was - don't remember ever thinking either forward or backward in time.
The thoughts seem to have grown and multiplied with age, seems to have gone hand in hand with when I began to believe them to be true, the thoughts gained more focus.
In my experience there was also a disconnection, an experience of separation happening in my childhood. The start of believing in the surroundings, my parents, my friends, my teachers, what was expected from me - more than my own experience of what was happening. What was wrong. A separation happened slowly…. I remember one specific event that probably created the first big sensation of separation.
Looking at my mother's face one day - somehow realizing she wasn't me. She was behaving strangely and there was a separation between her and me. Or so it felt anyway.
The more identification and layering of thoughts (taken for truths) the more the sense of isolation. The thoughts seem to be self-affirming in some way and the focus becomes even more on what is not true, on what is an illusion. Isolation in the world of thoughts. Isolation in the world of the senses. In a world of illusions.
When the thoughts begin to be taken for truths, they are somehow confirmed by other thoughts that form complex thought patterns and what is taken for the self becomes even more prominent and believed.
I don't remember much from my younger years, nor later on to be honest. But there is a clarity of seeing how all these beliefs came to be identified as being me, the self. One by one, added to this piece of character that has been built up and seen as Sari. Never really questioned, but somewhere there has been a feeling of something not making sense. Now it's more clear why..
I can see how easily it has happened - that the character I thought I was, adds another layer of condemnation, illusions, something that I appreciate as Sari, something that she doesn't want, or when someone says that I'm mean and I choose to believe it without seeing that these are just thoughts.
I have taken my thoughts for reality. There has been a belief that the thoughts I have are reflective of my world around me and what I see is true, I haven’t been able to see what is happening is the thoughts being believed to dictate reality. The clarity that thoughts have no real power has not been there and that they can never reflect a truth.
There has not previously been a full ability to see that all these are not truths - but illusions, unchallenged and unexamined thoughts - that shaped the experience and reality I thought I was living in.
The separate self is identification with the character built up by thought. When I can see that there is no separation, that thoughts of separation are an illusion - a thought is an illusion, then I can also see that separation is an illusion. There is no real separation.
Thank you for these final questions. I will answer them in a couple of different installments.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no entity, an I, a "me" anywhere, not in any shape or form. I can see in the here and now but if it's not here and now, then I can't see that it ever existed. This now is all I can see and experience and here there is no entity. If it doesn't exist here and now, it doesn't exist at all. This moment, this here is all that is and ever has been. In the absence of thoughts I cannot find time. Time seems to be a construction of the mind and when that is seen there is a realization that time does not exist - so there could never be a self anywhere nor anythime.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
When a thought is believed to be who I am, or believing thoughts to be me. There is separateness. Thoughts are happening, they are not the self. There is no self. No one is making the thoughts to happen.
A metaphor that can perhaps describe the process (if there is such a thing) - from the beginning there is no separation. There has never been.
On that, pieces of different kinds are added, of impressions, thoughts, memories, both my own, my surroundings, my parents, society, etc... they stick on and become like islands of papier-mache identity tags. These pieces create what I will refer to as me, as Sari.
The older I get, the more of these pieces are added, one piece overlapping the other, a huge blanket of infinite thought in all its forms.
The way I heard my parents call me, with my name, with names about who I am, how I behave, that I am separate from them, from my parents, from others, from everything, I am told how to behave , what I like to do, what others like me to do, what is expected of me and so on…
All these thoughts, these impressions, these feelings, sensations provide the basis for what I then begin to identify myself to be, this is Sari. She likes to draw, she doesn't like chocolate, when she is nice she gets Saturday sweets, Sari starts to reflect on all this and it leads to more thoughts and what she sees herself to be.
So a blissful mixture of all the names, illusions, memories, thoughts that she begins to think about herself, what is a good person, what is not liked by those around her. The character "I am Sari" builds on and becomes more complex with a complex train of thought... ad infinitum.
Thoughts that talk to other thoughts, thoughts that paint pictures, thoughts that seem to be who Sari makes herself out to be.
Along the way, the ability to discern that the thoughts are not me disappears.
Life is now governed by thoughts and they are usually not questioned but taken for absolute truths.
When I was a child I lived much more in the present, in what was - don't remember ever thinking either forward or backward in time.
The thoughts seem to have grown and multiplied with age, seems to have gone hand in hand with when I began to believe them to be true, the thoughts gained more focus.
In my experience there was also a disconnection, an experience of separation happening in my childhood. The start of believing in the surroundings, my parents, my friends, my teachers, what was expected from me - more than my own experience of what was happening. What was wrong. A separation happened slowly…. I remember one specific event that probably created the first big sensation of separation.
Looking at my mother's face one day - somehow realizing she wasn't me. She was behaving strangely and there was a separation between her and me. Or so it felt anyway.
The more identification and layering of thoughts (taken for truths) the more the sense of isolation. The thoughts seem to be self-affirming in some way and the focus becomes even more on what is not true, on what is an illusion. Isolation in the world of thoughts. Isolation in the world of the senses. In a world of illusions.
When the thoughts begin to be taken for truths, they are somehow confirmed by other thoughts that form complex thought patterns and what is taken for the self becomes even more prominent and believed.
I don't remember much from my younger years, nor later on to be honest. But there is a clarity of seeing how all these beliefs came to be identified as being me, the self. One by one, added to this piece of character that has been built up and seen as Sari. Never really questioned, but somewhere there has been a feeling of something not making sense. Now it's more clear why..
I can see how easily it has happened - that the character I thought I was, adds another layer of condemnation, illusions, something that I appreciate as Sari, something that she doesn't want, or when someone says that I'm mean and I choose to believe it without seeing that these are just thoughts.
I have taken my thoughts for reality. There has been a belief that the thoughts I have are reflective of my world around me and what I see is true, I haven’t been able to see what is happening is the thoughts being believed to dictate reality. The clarity that thoughts have no real power has not been there and that they can never reflect a truth.
There has not previously been a full ability to see that all these are not truths - but illusions, unchallenged and unexamined thoughts - that shaped the experience and reality I thought I was living in.
The separate self is identification with the character built up by thought. When I can see that there is no separation, that thoughts of separation are an illusion - a thought is an illusion, then I can also see that separation is an illusion. There is no real separation.
-
Gingerbella
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:41 am
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sandra,
Here is question 3 and my take on it. I'll post number 4 very soon.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days with some examples.
It feels incredibly liberating. I can't believe I haven't seen this before.
It is very clear that there is no self, but despite this, I also notice how deeply rooted old thought patterns do not seem to disappear in one fell swoop. However, it happens more and more often that I land and come back to what is.
Without the identification of being the one who thinks, controls or directs.
It feels like a burden lifted. The breath feels easier. Somehow there is a feeling that there was more air around me and that life is not as serious as I took it to be.
A greater curiosity and freshness about the most everyday things has started to shine into everyday life.
Yesterday we had a meeting at my work and I was able to observe what happened without taking my thoughts as absolute truths - the thoughts that came were very judgmental towards one of my colleagues.
I could observe that there were thoughts. The thoughts could be allowed to be there without me trying to do anything to them or with them. The thoughts and feelings that had accompanied them came and ebbed.
Especially in stressful situations, I notice that I can still end up in default mode - getting wrapped up in the world of thoughts. But I can also notice that I get out of the identification with the mind faster. What has been my experience these last few days is that I dwell lesser on what happened during the day, or should have happened.
I have been very identified with my thoughts, you could say almost a slave to them. In the past when there have been judgmental thoughts or thoughts about me judging someone, they have in turn led to me feeling bad and in turn judging these thoughts, like an endless loop...
I have taken myself to be a bad person for having these kinds of thoughts.
To be able to see that I am not all that I believed, identified with, called myself and so on is so amazing, so liberating. Love bubbles up, the heart laughs. How ironic everything is.
A couple of days ago I experienced a strong yearning to travel abroad.
I have experienced this many times and what used to happen - was that the thoughts spin so hard and I have a hard time getting out of their grip, creating distance and not believing them.
It is usually an intense internal dialogue with thoughts such as; I need to travel to relax, I need this trip because….. the heat is good for me, I need to challenge my laziness, get out of my comfort zone, etc.
This time I noticed that it started right up earlier. With the same intensity. I have to go. I just have to travel. After a while, a reflection came and I could see how all this was just thoughts without an iota of truth. When I saw that, that identification with having to travel disappeared.
In recent days, I have noticed that there is often an inexplicable joy in me. I feel like laughing at nothing at all, it feels paradoxical. Have noticed that when I sit and meditate, for example, I can burst into spontaneous fits of laughter - sometimes without a direct reason, sometimes I can laugh at how ironic it is that "I" sit and try to find a state of something that I can no longer explain or even seek. The meditation is no longer something that I have to try to control, it seems to happen by itself and there is a kind of acceptance to let it be as it is.
What has noticeably changed is the relationship with the body.
Above all, I notice that most of the pain I have had in the last year/years has been reduced, changed in character, is not as prominent and sometimes completely gone.
In the past, a thousand thoughts about what is causing the problems, what I need to do to make it better, the resistance in the mind to the pain, the judgment of it should not be there, thoughts about what will happen in the future, how much worse it will be, why can't any doctor find the causes so I can get well.
A domino effect that led to the body becoming even more stressed, getting more pain, becoming more stiff, muscles which in turn became so tense and the whole body contracted. A chain that triggered anxiety, breathing difficulties and a lot of other things in its path.
After I started this dialogue, there has been a big change in how the body and pain are felt and interpreted. I feel the whole body can relax more and heal when I don't believe all the thoughts that say one thing over the other.
The pain is not counteracted, it is allowed to be there and it feels incredibly liberating in itself. Like there is more space. It is now so clear that the body reacted to what the thoughts dictated.
There is more air, more space in what I experience now. So incredibly liberating.
Much love
S
Here is question 3 and my take on it. I'll post number 4 very soon.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days with some examples.
It feels incredibly liberating. I can't believe I haven't seen this before.
It is very clear that there is no self, but despite this, I also notice how deeply rooted old thought patterns do not seem to disappear in one fell swoop. However, it happens more and more often that I land and come back to what is.
Without the identification of being the one who thinks, controls or directs.
It feels like a burden lifted. The breath feels easier. Somehow there is a feeling that there was more air around me and that life is not as serious as I took it to be.
A greater curiosity and freshness about the most everyday things has started to shine into everyday life.
Yesterday we had a meeting at my work and I was able to observe what happened without taking my thoughts as absolute truths - the thoughts that came were very judgmental towards one of my colleagues.
I could observe that there were thoughts. The thoughts could be allowed to be there without me trying to do anything to them or with them. The thoughts and feelings that had accompanied them came and ebbed.
Especially in stressful situations, I notice that I can still end up in default mode - getting wrapped up in the world of thoughts. But I can also notice that I get out of the identification with the mind faster. What has been my experience these last few days is that I dwell lesser on what happened during the day, or should have happened.
I have been very identified with my thoughts, you could say almost a slave to them. In the past when there have been judgmental thoughts or thoughts about me judging someone, they have in turn led to me feeling bad and in turn judging these thoughts, like an endless loop...
I have taken myself to be a bad person for having these kinds of thoughts.
To be able to see that I am not all that I believed, identified with, called myself and so on is so amazing, so liberating. Love bubbles up, the heart laughs. How ironic everything is.
A couple of days ago I experienced a strong yearning to travel abroad.
I have experienced this many times and what used to happen - was that the thoughts spin so hard and I have a hard time getting out of their grip, creating distance and not believing them.
It is usually an intense internal dialogue with thoughts such as; I need to travel to relax, I need this trip because….. the heat is good for me, I need to challenge my laziness, get out of my comfort zone, etc.
This time I noticed that it started right up earlier. With the same intensity. I have to go. I just have to travel. After a while, a reflection came and I could see how all this was just thoughts without an iota of truth. When I saw that, that identification with having to travel disappeared.
In recent days, I have noticed that there is often an inexplicable joy in me. I feel like laughing at nothing at all, it feels paradoxical. Have noticed that when I sit and meditate, for example, I can burst into spontaneous fits of laughter - sometimes without a direct reason, sometimes I can laugh at how ironic it is that "I" sit and try to find a state of something that I can no longer explain or even seek. The meditation is no longer something that I have to try to control, it seems to happen by itself and there is a kind of acceptance to let it be as it is.
What has noticeably changed is the relationship with the body.
Above all, I notice that most of the pain I have had in the last year/years has been reduced, changed in character, is not as prominent and sometimes completely gone.
In the past, a thousand thoughts about what is causing the problems, what I need to do to make it better, the resistance in the mind to the pain, the judgment of it should not be there, thoughts about what will happen in the future, how much worse it will be, why can't any doctor find the causes so I can get well.
A domino effect that led to the body becoming even more stressed, getting more pain, becoming more stiff, muscles which in turn became so tense and the whole body contracted. A chain that triggered anxiety, breathing difficulties and a lot of other things in its path.
After I started this dialogue, there has been a big change in how the body and pain are felt and interpreted. I feel the whole body can relax more and heal when I don't believe all the thoughts that say one thing over the other.
The pain is not counteracted, it is allowed to be there and it feels incredibly liberating in itself. Like there is more space. It is now so clear that the body reacted to what the thoughts dictated.
There is more air, more space in what I experience now. So incredibly liberating.
Much love
S
-
Gingerbella
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:41 am
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sandra,
Here is number 4.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see?
A very subtle thing.
When recognizing that “my” body was just sensations happening there was a shift of perception. First I couldn’t see that there were thoughts involved in how I perceived it. This body must be mine because I can feel it, I can feel the sensations happening in it, I feel the pain.
When taking away the identification with thoughts, there was just the sensations happening, the pain felt etc. Kind of floating islands in open space.
In the same way that it could be recognized that hearing is happening it is just hearing. Thinking is happening. This was kind of clear.
But there was still “my body” and I couldn't see that there were thoughts labeling the sensations as sensations, the movement as movement.
Recognizing there is sensation happening and that has nothing to do with thoughts about it changed the game for me.
In gratitude
S
Here is number 4.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see?
A very subtle thing.
When recognizing that “my” body was just sensations happening there was a shift of perception. First I couldn’t see that there were thoughts involved in how I perceived it. This body must be mine because I can feel it, I can feel the sensations happening in it, I feel the pain.
When taking away the identification with thoughts, there was just the sensations happening, the pain felt etc. Kind of floating islands in open space.
In the same way that it could be recognized that hearing is happening it is just hearing. Thinking is happening. This was kind of clear.
But there was still “my body” and I couldn't see that there were thoughts labeling the sensations as sensations, the movement as movement.
Recognizing there is sensation happening and that has nothing to do with thoughts about it changed the game for me.
In gratitude
S
-
Gingerbella
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:41 am
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sandra,
Been sitting with investigating decision, control, free will, intention, choise. I can only see that these all are dependent in believing that a self exists, on thoughts being true.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.
Things seem to happen without anything making them too.
Or at least I cannot see what makes anything happen, they just do, things just happen.
I don't know how it works. It works without me knowing anything about it and without any involvement from anything I can observe or experience.
It looks like there is a kind of aliveness/inherent intelligence in everything and nothing, that is just happening. Not sure how to put it into words.
In my investigation there is no one, a self that is making any decisions - they happen without any one taking a decision.
A self cannot make anything happen as it is not real. It is a thought taking ownership over what is occuring.
It is the same with intention, free will, choice and control. These are mind made and thought based. When I look I cannot find anyone that can make a choice, nor control, no one to have an intention.
I cannot see how free will can exist when investigating - for that there need to be choicess to make, choices are thoughts. There is nothing to choose, that is just an illusion. Things seem to happen as they do, in the way they happen. There is no self involved in it. I cannot control, change anything - all this is a creation of the mind that there are different options.
Life happens. If I think I can make a choice that is all based on thoughts.
To choose between different thoughts, or to control an outcome based on different options is all built on illusions of the mind.
What is seen is that a choice is happening, then the mind takes ownership over it and claims that it made that decision. Same thing with intention, control etc. It is an after construction of thoughts that says “I did that” to the appearing event that happened. The thought added seems to happen outside of the absolute presence of a direct now.
Looking deeper I can recognize that the “I”cannot be responsible for anything. No one is responsible.
As the I does not exist, it isn’t real. Everything is happening without a “me” involved in any way.
There is no one controlling. Not even me realizing anything - it is all mind created stuff.
The I believe it can be responsible, that it can change things, that it can have control but these are thoughts arising and being believed to be true.
I was sitting on the sofa and decided to rise up and go get a glass of water. Without investigating this closer I would have believed that it was I who made the decision. But when looking closer the thought added to what was going to happen, the labeling I am gonna go for a glass of water - seemed to take ownership of what was occurring after the process of getting up started.The body is moving by itself, I am not in any control of it.
I’ve been observing my body for some time, investigating control and how it shows up, if it works.
There has been a cough for six months and every morning. I had an intention of wanting the cough to stop and I noticed how I wanted to control the body by not coughing. I have no control at all. This was very obvious. The body does what it does, it coughs if it wants to, no matter if there is resistance to it or I decide not to.
I had an intention to wash my dish, but the water didn’t work so the dish couldn’t be washed. I had no control. Both the intention and control were thoughts. The body was moving, hand switching on on the water tap - without me controlling anything - it was just happening.
Experimenting with trying to control the sensations in my feet. I tell the tingling sensation to stop, it doesn’t. I cannot sleep due to the energy in the body. I try to control the high level of energy in different ways - without any success. It calms down when it calms down, or not.
With love
S
Been sitting with investigating decision, control, free will, intention, choise. I can only see that these all are dependent in believing that a self exists, on thoughts being true.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.
Things seem to happen without anything making them too.
Or at least I cannot see what makes anything happen, they just do, things just happen.
I don't know how it works. It works without me knowing anything about it and without any involvement from anything I can observe or experience.
It looks like there is a kind of aliveness/inherent intelligence in everything and nothing, that is just happening. Not sure how to put it into words.
In my investigation there is no one, a self that is making any decisions - they happen without any one taking a decision.
A self cannot make anything happen as it is not real. It is a thought taking ownership over what is occuring.
It is the same with intention, free will, choice and control. These are mind made and thought based. When I look I cannot find anyone that can make a choice, nor control, no one to have an intention.
I cannot see how free will can exist when investigating - for that there need to be choicess to make, choices are thoughts. There is nothing to choose, that is just an illusion. Things seem to happen as they do, in the way they happen. There is no self involved in it. I cannot control, change anything - all this is a creation of the mind that there are different options.
Life happens. If I think I can make a choice that is all based on thoughts.
To choose between different thoughts, or to control an outcome based on different options is all built on illusions of the mind.
What is seen is that a choice is happening, then the mind takes ownership over it and claims that it made that decision. Same thing with intention, control etc. It is an after construction of thoughts that says “I did that” to the appearing event that happened. The thought added seems to happen outside of the absolute presence of a direct now.
Looking deeper I can recognize that the “I”cannot be responsible for anything. No one is responsible.
As the I does not exist, it isn’t real. Everything is happening without a “me” involved in any way.
There is no one controlling. Not even me realizing anything - it is all mind created stuff.
The I believe it can be responsible, that it can change things, that it can have control but these are thoughts arising and being believed to be true.
I was sitting on the sofa and decided to rise up and go get a glass of water. Without investigating this closer I would have believed that it was I who made the decision. But when looking closer the thought added to what was going to happen, the labeling I am gonna go for a glass of water - seemed to take ownership of what was occurring after the process of getting up started.The body is moving by itself, I am not in any control of it.
I’ve been observing my body for some time, investigating control and how it shows up, if it works.
There has been a cough for six months and every morning. I had an intention of wanting the cough to stop and I noticed how I wanted to control the body by not coughing. I have no control at all. This was very obvious. The body does what it does, it coughs if it wants to, no matter if there is resistance to it or I decide not to.
I had an intention to wash my dish, but the water didn’t work so the dish couldn’t be washed. I had no control. Both the intention and control were thoughts. The body was moving, hand switching on on the water tap - without me controlling anything - it was just happening.
Experimenting with trying to control the sensations in my feet. I tell the tingling sensation to stop, it doesn’t. I cannot sleep due to the energy in the body. I try to control the high level of energy in different ways - without any success. It calms down when it calms down, or not.
With love
S
-
Gingerbella
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:41 am
Re: Tired of searching
Hi Sandra,
Here is the last qyuestion, number 6.
6) Anything to add?
Spent the day looking into something I want to add. Nothing special comes up.
What I have noticed is that more and more often there is silence in the mind, nothing comes up. Or that when I come up with something that I want to write or say, it has completely disappeared from memory.
As I mentioned before, it happens in the middle of a conversation and sometimes in the middle of a sentence.
When I sat and expanded on the questions, I noticed and laborated about how I can express myself without what I write being a story. I cannot.
If I look more closely at everything written, it seems to be an endless mass of thoughts and stories, at the same time I see no other way to express myself.
It seems to be what it is.
I am incredibly grateful for the guidance and pointers you helped me with Sandra. I couldn't have known how much of a difference it makes to have someone help me see what is my blind spot, what is right in front of my eyes but which I have completely missed and are blind to.
A huge big thank you!
Much love
Sari
Here is the last qyuestion, number 6.
6) Anything to add?
Spent the day looking into something I want to add. Nothing special comes up.
What I have noticed is that more and more often there is silence in the mind, nothing comes up. Or that when I come up with something that I want to write or say, it has completely disappeared from memory.
As I mentioned before, it happens in the middle of a conversation and sometimes in the middle of a sentence.
When I sat and expanded on the questions, I noticed and laborated about how I can express myself without what I write being a story. I cannot.
If I look more closely at everything written, it seems to be an endless mass of thoughts and stories, at the same time I see no other way to express myself.
It seems to be what it is.
I am incredibly grateful for the guidance and pointers you helped me with Sandra. I couldn't have known how much of a difference it makes to have someone help me see what is my blind spot, what is right in front of my eyes but which I have completely missed and are blind to.
A huge big thank you!
Much love
Sari
Re: Tired of searching
Dear Sari,
Thank you for your answers and your kind words! It was a pleasure to guide you!
I'm going to ask the other guides if they have more questions for you.
Take care,
S
Thank you for your answers and your kind words! It was a pleasure to guide you!
I'm going to ask the other guides if they have more questions for you.
Take care,
S
Re: Tired of searching
Dear Sari,
The guides did take a look and do not have more questions.
If you have any further questions please let me know?
People sometimes enter this process imagining that they will reach a finishing line of some sort, or an 'end' (of whatever). The reality is more like a beginning.
You will receive an email or PM from and LU admin with some details. Please read it.
If you ever feel inclined to guide at LU that could be an option. If you are interested in that just let me know?
The formal guiding bit of our chat here is complete. It has been a pleasure speaking with you.
Much love and best wishes,
Sandra
The guides did take a look and do not have more questions.
If you have any further questions please let me know?
People sometimes enter this process imagining that they will reach a finishing line of some sort, or an 'end' (of whatever). The reality is more like a beginning.
You will receive an email or PM from and LU admin with some details. Please read it.
If you ever feel inclined to guide at LU that could be an option. If you are interested in that just let me know?
The formal guiding bit of our chat here is complete. It has been a pleasure speaking with you.
Much love and best wishes,
Sandra
-
Gingerbella
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:41 am
Re: Tired of searching
Dear Sandra,
Thank you for your very sweet reply, it is warming my heart. It has been amazing to have you as my guide. Thank you so much for being so tolerant, kind, and seeing where I’ve been stuck.
Being aware that this is just the beginning and the start of deepening and the unfolding never ends. Thank you for reminding.
The “first” part needed seeing the identification with the non existing self and conditioning of what I believed to be me. It seems like everything is a beginning, unfolding over and over again in different ways and expressions, in the present moment.
If I can give anything back - I am willing to guide. Please let me know how that works. No hurry.
Much love
Sari
Thank you for your very sweet reply, it is warming my heart. It has been amazing to have you as my guide. Thank you so much for being so tolerant, kind, and seeing where I’ve been stuck.
Being aware that this is just the beginning and the start of deepening and the unfolding never ends. Thank you for reminding.
The “first” part needed seeing the identification with the non existing self and conditioning of what I believed to be me. It seems like everything is a beginning, unfolding over and over again in different ways and expressions, in the present moment.
If I can give anything back - I am willing to guide. Please let me know how that works. No hurry.
I will, looking forward to it.You will receive an email or PM from and LU admin with some details. Please read it.
Much love
Sari
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