Hello! I could use some help!

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram
Very good!
How is life these days? Is there still seeking?
At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Love
Rali

[Danial]

Hi Rali,

How is life these days? Is there still seeking?

Yes. There's still seeking. :-|

Not feeling great. Frustrated. Sad.

I feel like I've regressed or something.
Maybe just tired - will get back to you.

Hawram

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram

Not feeling great. Frustrated. Sad.

I’m sorry to hear that! That could be a good thing and a perfect opportunity. Feel that “frustration”, feel the “sadness”, feel “not feeling great”! Experience it all, give it all the space that it needs.

I feel like I've regressed or something.

What is there to regress? Is there a regressed entity or thoughts about regression? Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state.
Seeing probably won't be 24/7. There's likely to be a "honeymoon period," and then what we call, "got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned. This can go on for months & years.
The initial shift is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. But ask yourself:

What is it that could be awake?
What is it that awakening could happen TO?
Is there someone separate form life, waiting to wake up to reality?
Is there someone who needs to let go of conceptualization? Bad feelings?
Or letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?

Love
Rali

[Danial]

What is there to regress? Is there a regressed entity or thoughts about regression?

With DE - there's just thoughts about regression.

What is it that could be awake?

There isn't - just senses and thoughts.

What is it that awakening could happen TO?

Again - just senses and thoughts. No one at the center of that.

Is there someone separate form life, waiting to wake up to reality?

There's thoughts about such a being. But no such being.

Is there someone who needs to let go of conceptualization? Bad feelings?

Again - thoughts about such a being. But no such being.

Or letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?

Letting go happens on its own effortlessly - and there's nobody to relax until it does. So it's all gravy.

Yeah - I guess I was expecting to become more "chilled out". But that didn't really happen - it honestly seems like nothing has changed. Oh well.

Thank you Rali.

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram

Yeah - I guess I was expecting to become more "chilled out". But that didn't really happen - it honestly seems like nothing has changed. Oh well.

Yes! That is why I said that expectations come in the way of seeing THIS as it is. The change is very subtle and it can be missed. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “yourself” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all old beliefs and conditioning. It’s these beliefs that cause “sadness”, “frustration”, “not feeling great”. So they need to be examined vs DE – what is here and what is not. Obviously there are sensations but is there inherent “sadness”, “frustration”, “badness” in them?

To “deal” with conditioning and problematic emotions, question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being. There might still be expectations, confusion, and doubt. That’s quite normal at this stage. You may be swaying between “I get it” and “I don’t get it.” You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?

This video might be helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?
Love
Rali

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram
Is everything OK? Are we still doing the inquiry?
Love
Rali

[Danial]

Hey Rali!

I appreciate you reaching out.
Yeah - everything's ok.

I assumed we were pretty much done, and I've been looking for the self, the one experiencing things, etc throughout the last few days. I'm definitely down to continue, if you are.

[poppyseed]

I assumed we were pretty much done, and I've been looking for the self, the one experiencing things, etc throughout the last few days. I'm definitely down to continue, if you are.

So can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is? If not what do you want to explore together? Please answer the previous questions as well

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Just to not leave a stone unturned...

I've been looking for the self, the one experiencing things,

Remember we have only the senses. Experiencing happens through the physical senses + thought. If there is experience, one or more of those are present. Even spaciousness, being, aliveness, presence, am-ness are still experienced as subtle sensations (i.e. these are labels for subtle sensations). There are sensations like “breathing” and “heartbeat” that are here all the time but go unnoticed because they are so subtle. Is there anything here that is not the senses and thinking? For something like an observer/experiencer to exist it has to be separate from the senses that it experiences. So can this observer/experiencer be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, and/or felt? Is there an experiencer/observer or experiencing/noticing that is inseparable from its objects of experiencing/noticing?

You remember the apple exercise, right? Great! So if you look at the observer, is it actually known?
Yes, sensation labelled as “observer” is known, as are the thoughts ABOUT an “observer”, but an “observer” isn’t actually known. It is a concept…and concepts aren’t an issue, unless they are believed.

Does the label "observer" contain an actual observer...does it contain an actual person?
Does the label "observer" itself, suggest in any way that it is an observer?
Does the label "observer" know anything about an observer?
What does the label "observer" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "observer" actually refer to?

Love
Rali

[Danial]

So can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is? If not what do you want to explore together?

I can't. I still think I am because I think/see/observe (it's not as strong as before, but it's still there). Furthermore, I feel like the one who suffers and is ashamed.
I'd like to explore the feelings of shame and beliefs of being the one who suffers.

Obviously there are sensations but is there inherent “sadness”, “frustration”, “badness” in them?

No, not now when I focus on these sensations. When strong feelings come up out of the blue, though, it's not as easy to see this.

what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?

There's feelings/thoughts of frustration and being stuck.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

I'm a little more calm, maybe 10-15% more calm. Nothing else changed.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

Some emotions manifest a bit stronger now and I can feel them closely without having a spiraling reaction or pushing them away.

Is seeking still going on?

I don't know. Sometimes.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

This may sound strange but I'd like to explore the belief/feeling of being one who is helpless. Kind of like a victim mindset.
I think that may help.

[Danial]

Rali,

Please give me an additional day for your last set of questions.


Thanks,
Hawram

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram

I will reply when you give me your second reply so we have all in one place and don't go backwards and forwards

Love
Rali

[Danial]

Is there anything here that is not the senses and thinking? For something like an observer/experiencer to exist it has to be separate from the senses that it experiences.

No, there's nothing here right now that is not the senses or thinking. Your second sentence here really helped refocus me, thank you.

So can this observer/experiencer be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, and/or felt?

No it's just the senses.

Is there an experiencer/observer or experiencing/noticing that is inseparable from its objects of experiencing/noticing?

It's the latter.

You remember the apple exercise, right? Great! So if you look at the observer, is it actually known?

If I remember correctly, the apple exercise was about knowing the apple on a sense level - taste, texture, color, etc. However, I don't know if you can do this with "observer" because it's a concept, and without going to thoughts it can't be described.

Does the label "observer" contain an actual observer...does it contain an actual person?

No, it's just a label. An arbitrary word.

Does the label "observer" itself, suggest in any way that it is an observer?

No.

Does the label "observer" know anything about an observer?

No, words don't know things.

What does the label "observer" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "observer" actually refer to?

Looks like "observer" points to the stream of stuff happening.

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram

I can’t. I still think I am because I think/see/observe (it’s not as strong as before, but it’s still there).

Well do you (think, see, observe)? Don't just say it! Test it! Can you think only positive thoughts if you are the thinker? Why do you “choose” to have negative then? Can you decide not to see if you are the seer? Even with eyes closed there are still colours – black, red….I've given you plenty of pointers how to look for these entities...
When you have two opposing views (i.e. view of reality) you have to keep checking their truthfulness. What we are used to do is to check if a new idea fits with the rest of our beliefs and discard it if it doesn’t (confirmation bias). This method saves energy so it was used for a really long time. Now we’ve added a second method for dealing with opposing concepts – to check with our senses which one truly describes what is happening. The “stubbornness” of some thoughts comes from that confirmation bias as there are not just one thought but a system of thoughts forming your view/belief system of reality. So to “reduce the resistance’ you need to painstakingly examine all thoughts one by one as they appear and compare them to DE in order for thoughts to self-organise and form a new core of beliefs. And I underlie self-organise as this is not in your control, it just happens. I’ve basically introduced a virus thought (LOOK!) in your thought system that causes all thoughts to be reorganised around the experience :). So LOOK! Ultimately, realizing the empty nature of all concepts frees the mind.

Furthermore, I feel like the one who suffers and is ashamed.
I’d like to explore the feelings of shame and beliefs of being the one who suffers.

This may sound strange but I'd like to explore the belief/feeling of being one who is helpless. Kind of like a victim mindset.
I think that may help.

So are you also the experiencer? So again, similarly to the “observer”, for something like an experiencer to exist it has to be separate from the senses that it experiences. Can you spot that “guy”/agency? What is the label “experiencer” pointing to?

With regards to the feelings of shame, victim, helplessness and suffering, let me point out that we are not here to analyse and solve problems, make things better (better for whom???). This is not a self-improving exercise. We are here to see what is real and what is not. So let’s have a look!
There is a belief that happiness is connected to the quality of “I,” so it has to be improved to become a better I. There is also a belief that happiness is somewhere outside, that it has to come from someone or something else, that there is someone or something out there that can give it to you. This is could be attention, praise, compassion, understanding, love. Suffering comes from not getting this. It is a mixture of heavy emotions like sadness, hopelessness, helplessness, despair, clinging, shame, anger, and guilt. As a result thoughts like I don’t want this! Why me? appear. The main fears are of death, non-existence, lack of control (helplessness), lack of recognition (victimhood), pain, loneliness, and bad things happening in the future.
So with any of these strong feelings, feel the gap between wanting and not having/lacking, and observe what sensations are triggered when wanting appears. Notice that wanting control, wanting security, wanting acceptance and love, wanting recognition is just that – wanting (thoughts). There is a story about trying to be in control and not succeeding and the feelings of guilt and shame (more story + sensations) that arise with the failure. So basically, in DE, what is happening is a lot of thinking and sensations, right? Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label?
Wanting security has to do with thoughts or fear about the future. Thought creates endless what-if scenarios about how the future is uncertain, unwelcome, and scary and you are helpless. Consider this: the future never comes—all we have is now. Thinking about problems does not solve problems, it creates them. Notice how fear and helplessness show up only when thoughts about the future come up. Focus on the sensations; let them be seen, and let them pass. Out of curiosity, look behind the fear. What is it trying to protect?
Wanting to be loved, acknowledged, validated, heard, respected, honoured, accepted, and cherished are big wants. It’s common to think that love and acceptance have to come from someone else, from outside; only then, you will be happy and feel loved, right? There is no one person out there who can give it to you – literally! Love is exactly that recognition – that there are no self and others, that all is one inseparable whole. Please look at what you are saying with the victim mindset and notice the beliefs and assumptions there. For one to be a victim there has to be an attacker/a victor. There is a belief in separate selves, selves that are separate from the whole / life / existence, and each fragmented and isolated selves are living their lives in a world, which these assumed selves (like bubbles) are separate from. Is this true? How are “others” experienced in DE?

If I remember correctly, the apple exercise was about knowing the apple on a sense level - taste, texture, color, etc. However, I don't know if you can do this with "observer" because it's a concept, and without going to thoughts it can't be described.

Ha! Is there an “apple to be known on any level??? There are sensations, colours, taste, smell labelled apple but is there an “apple” at all? The main difference here is the label “apple” points to stuff that exists (sensory information) while the “observer” does not point to anything existing, like Santa. Is that clear?

Love
Rali

[Danial]

Hey Rali,

Give me another day please! A lot to unpack here.