Restless searching

[Nikinutter]

Answers to your questions:

Can you predict when you give attention to a thought and when not?

No, this cannot be predicted. Often one does not know when they are giving attention to a thought or not which is why it's easy to get lost in them if you're not aware.

And when you close your eyes, notice attention moving about, can you predict it before it moves next?

No, there is no possible way to predict where attention moves next, it just moves with experience happening.

Is it you choosing not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, there is no one to choose this, there is just awareness.

In other words, how does the decision not to identify happen? What is the sequence of events?

The decision to not identify happens in the noticing, but truly no decision is made when it's just noticed.

So, if a thought arises and it's just noticed as a thought, like the next sound that appears is noticed, there is no decision to identify or not. It all just is as it is.

[Bluejay]

So, if a thought arises and it's just noticed as a thought, like the next sound that appears is noticed, there is no decision to identify or not. It all just is as it is.

Alright, that sounds great!

And when a thought or sense is noticed, is there noticing/awareness + thought?

Are there two things?

[Nikinutter]

And when a thought or sense is noticed, is there noticing/awareness + thought?

No, there is just awareness.

[Bluejay]

Alrightey!

Are you familiar with dependent origination and emptiness?

Here's a 90 second video on emptiness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYqaWmc4OGA

Emptiness means empty of independent existence. Meaning, an inherent existence that is unchanging and permanent.

Do you see what is meant by dependent existence (dependent on causes, conditions, etc)?

Can you see how the separate self is empty?

And do you notice how this applies to phenomena, things, and 'others'?

[Nikinutter]

Are you familiar with dependent origination and emptiness?

Emptiness yes, but dependent origination is a new term for me.

Here's a 90 second video on emptiness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYqaWmc4OGA

Very helpful!

Emptiness means empty of independent existence. Meaning, an inherent existence that is unchanging and permanent.

I do understand this. I experience emptiness as there being no subject or object separation as there cannot be one without the other, they are dependent on each other.

Do you see what is meant by dependent existence (dependent on causes, conditions, etc)?

I think I do now, what exists dependently, cannot also exist separately.

Can you see how the separate self is empty?

Yes, what is considered the self is actually dependent on other stuff, things, experiences etc to exist. Therefore it is empty of independence or another way to put it is empty of separation because what is dependent cannot also be independent.

And do you notice how this applies to phenomena, things, and 'others'?

I think so. In order for there to be an experience, there has to be something to be experienced, You cannot have one without the other. There is not something that is just a "tree" rather it consists of all its dependant parts. Roots, trunk, branches, leaves, seeds, minerals etc.

[Bluejay]

Yup, exactly! Nicely put :)

And some general questions:

How do you view responsibility?

What about decisions? How do they happen?

Can you write a bit about your shift of seeing through the illusion of self? Was it a clear shift that you remember?

[Nikinutter]

How do you view responsibility?

Well, there are different types of responsibility. As a mother, when I had young children I had a responsibility to care for them and meet their needs in the best way I could. There is personal responsibility ensuring the "self" is cared for and moves in the world in a way that doesn't cause harm. There is no blaming others for my actions, I am responsible completely for myself. Then there is social responsibility where we love care for one another and people that need an extra hand ideally should get it. The world is part of that, caring for animals and the earth in a way that doesn't harm.

What about decisions? How do they happen?

Decisions can only happen from a place of being centered. It's kind of hard to talk about...from the place of understanding there is no self there is only dependent experience. From that place all that can exist is love and kindness that flows outwards. A decision can not be wrong or right when made in that space, they will just flow. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

Can you write a bit about your shift of seeing through the illusion of self? Was it a clear shift that you remember?

I think what has led me to see through self started after my daughter died by suicide. I started a journey back then because of the pain I experienced through losing her. I had to do something to end the suffering, I felt so lost and without purpose. I decided it was time to deal with all my demons from my own childhood, and sought therapy for it. Although my therapist used therapeutic techniques to help me untangle my past I became curious. Part of the therapy was to sit with difficult experiences and not disassociate but to feel them and talk about them and know that it's ok and I'm safe. It was the first time I was really able to be in my body with those memories and I wanted to learn more about that.

From there I went down a rabbit hole for years and delved into books to understand consciousness, neuroscience and some Buddhist teachings. And then I read a book by Angelo Duilulo and learned about inquiry. A particular one was to explore what the nature of self is which led me to an awakening. I had an experience after that deep inquiry of looking in the mirror and not recognizing myself, I felt like an alien. And when interacting with my dogs it all seem like there was no separation between us, although I didn't have words back then to understand what was going on. I had a few months of just being in that space of no self peace and it was wonderful but then I seemed loose it. So, I got into more inquiry, understanding what reactions are, patterns that we create in life etc.

And then I had a second awakening experience where I understood, through a difficult interaction, that I identified as a victim and was creating my own suffering. That was completely destabilizing for me for a couple weeks. After that I wanted to understand more about how else I might identify with things or others and recognize reactions before I flew off the deep end into old patterns. That was when I found Kevin's YouTube interviews on the fetters and then Pernille's. Now I find myself in a space of noticing what a reaction feels like in me but in the noticing pause and come back to the empty space of no self rather than moving on the feeling like I used to. I thought an LU guide could help me understand more about recognizing reactions and dissolving them once and for all but understand now LU is a place to help people get through the gate. But, I'm interested in learning how to help others find libertarian because I truly believe that is a meaningful way to help heal the world. I want others to feel the peace that I've found through understanding we are not separate.

[Bluejay]

Well, there are different types of responsibility. As a mother, when I had young children I had a responsibility to care for them and meet their needs in the best way I could. There is personal responsibility ensuring the "self" is cared for and moves in the world in a way that doesn't cause harm. There is no blaming others for my actions, I am responsible completely for myself. Then there is social responsibility where we love care for one another and people that need an extra hand ideally should get it. The world is part of that, caring for animals and the earth in a way that doesn't harm.

And are you responsible for this responsibility?

In other words, can you make sure that you are and behave responsibly?

Decisions can only happen from a place of being centered. It's kind of hard to talk about...from the place of understanding there is no self there is only dependent experience. From that place all that can exist is love and kindness that flows outwards. A decision can not be wrong or right when made in that space, they will just flow. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

Can you control whether or not you are in that place of being centered?

And another type of question on decisions: Let's say you are deciding what to eat for breakfast, when did that decision start?

I think what has led me to see through self started after my daughter died by suicide.

Sorry to hear that!

And then I had a second awakening experience where I understood, through a difficult interaction, that I identified as a victim and was creating my own suffering. That was completely destabilizing for me for a couple weeks. After that I wanted to understand more about how else I might identify with things or others and recognize reactions before I flew off the deep end into old patterns. That was when I found Kevin's YouTube interviews on the fetters and then Pernille's. Now I find myself in a space of noticing what a reaction feels like in me but in the noticing pause and come back to the empty space of no self rather than moving on the feeling like I used to. I thought an LU guide could help me understand more about recognizing reactions and dissolving them once and for all but understand now LU is a place to help people get through the gate. But, I'm interested in learning how to help others find libertarian because I truly believe that is a meaningful way to help heal the world. I want others to feel the peace that I've found through understanding we are not separate.

Thanks for sharing!

How has your life changed before your first awakening in terms of day to day life?

What does it feel like?

[Nikinutter]

And are you responsible for this responsibility?

I knew I was answering your questions from a place of thinking, but did not know how not to do that so thank you for these further questions! Hmm, this one is hard to answer. When I consider dependent existence I know my experiences in this world have consequences on all phenomenon. I think responsibility arises from this knowing because I live in a world where actions have consequences. I have to eat to keep the body alive and healthy, work to buy my food and interact with others on the process just like I always did. But the difference now the is awareness there is no separation.

In other words, can you make sure that you are and behave responsibly?

Yes I can because I care. I would not want others to treat me poorly or cause harm therefore I wouldn't want to cause the same to others. There is no subject object separation so the actions of one affect others for good or ill. Because we are dependent there can be no independent actions and that understanding matters to being responsible.

The best way I can clarify what I'm trying to state is that this world is dependent and we all have roles that affects the whole. I need a house to live in but can't build one myself. I depend on contractors to do that and it requires plumbers, carpenters, electrician etc. In order for them to do their job, there has to be somebody who cuts down the wood, mines the metals and fabricate plastic. Those elements come from the earth which is dependent on the sun... and so on.
When there is a knowing of this there's only one way to be and that is to be responsible for my part in the whole experience.

Can you control whether or not you are in that place of being centered?

No, the sense of control is an illusion. There is only awareness to what is happening through direct experience.

And another type of question on decisions: Let's say you are deciding what to eat for breakfast, when did that decision start?

Action to do something is caused by a stimulus in the body that is felt through direct experience which is then acted on. So, I feel my stomach churning and tightening and recognize that as hunger and decide what I'll eat from there.

Sorry to hear that!

Thank you very much 😊

How has your life changed before your first awakening in terms of day to day life?

Nothing has changed yet everything has. It's very paradoxical. Before awakening I suffered greatly. I grieved on a daily basis, reacted to perceived threats to my well being and constantly questioned my decisions and actions. There was little peace or contenment. That is no longer the case now that I am aware. I no longer have the need to distract myself through social media scrolling or seeking out the next experience that will bring enjoyment. I'm more intentional about taking care of my body and developing meaningful relationships with others. Day to day I'm still very much the same in the sense that I work, take care of my dogs, take care of my house ect but there is not a sense of duty and having to do this or that grudgingly, hurrying from task to task. Rather I find contenment and enjoyment in doing the day-to-day experiences. I no longer rush through to get on to the next but am intentional and thorough. I find that I listen deeper to others because I no longer make their words about me and have more compassion for their experience.

What does it feel like?

It feels like waking up from a dream of separation. I still suffer, feel physical pain and grieve but my relationship to it has changed, I feel contenment in it all. There is a certain beauty to suffering I never appreciated before. It used to feel heavy, like a burden, now it feels light. The pain is still there but it's bearable and I would say even enjoyable because of the contentment that is ever present. Situations I may have reacted to in the past no longer cause a reaction, in fact when I think about it I have very little reactions to feelings in the body that caused me to have melt downs in the past. Every once and while a sensation arises that I may have labeled as dangerous or unpleasant in the past but now I just notice and am curious. I'm sure one day I'll realize they are completely gone as I have with other feelings I used to get. There is a certain equanimity in that knowing.

[Bluejay]

Rather I find contenment and enjoyment in doing the day-to-day experiences. I no longer rush through to get on to the next but am intentional and thorough. I find that I listen deeper to others because I no longer make their words about me and have more compassion for their experience.

This all sounds great!

It feels like waking up from a dream of separation. I still suffer, feel physical pain and grieve but my relationship to it has changed, I feel contenment in it all. There is a certain beauty to suffering I never appreciated before. It used to feel heavy, like a burden, now it feels light. The pain is still there but it's bearable and I would say even enjoyable because of the contentment that is ever present. Situations I may have reacted to in the past no longer cause a reaction, in fact when I think about it I have very little reactions to feelings in the body that caused me to have melt downs in the past. Every once and while a sensation arises that I may have labeled as dangerous or unpleasant in the past but now I just notice and am curious. I'm sure one day I'll realize they are completely gone as I have with other feelings I used to get. There is a certain equanimity in that knowing.

Makes perfect sense to me (re: beauty of suffering). Emotional work in general is so much easier after first awakening because it's no longer personal.

Yes I can because I care. I would not want others to treat me poorly or cause harm therefore I wouldn't want to cause the same to others. There is no subject object separation so the actions of one affect others for good or ill. Because we are dependent there can be no independent actions and that understanding matters to being responsible.

Is this caring yours?

Can you always make sure that you behave responsibly? Is there something in control of the conditions that lead to that?

What I'm getting at is if there is an independent chooser that decides to care or be responsible, or if that is just how Nic is put together?

This pointer might be relevant here:

The aim of this pointer is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Enjoy! :)

[Nikinutter]

Is this caring yours?

No, it is not. I see that as these questions are read and a reply is written. There can not be a choice to care anymore than there can be a choice to not care as there is no one to make that choice. It all comes back to dependent existence. Experience is empty of self, there is no subject object separation therefore the way one behaves is dependant on what the moment calls for. If I'm confronted with a bear I'll act differently depending on my experience at the moment. Am I at a zoo or walking through a forest? The action of what feels like a decision in that moment is based on what the situation calls for. There is no one making the choice though. If I'm feeling like I chose an action and had control over that choice it's only because I'm identifying as the one making a choice. That's delusional thinking. I don't know if that clarified that the caring is not mine or jumbled things more!

Can you always make sure that you behave responsibly? Is there something in control of the conditions that lead to that?

There is nothing in control of conditions that ensure one behaves responsibly so no there cannot be a certainty to responsible behavior.

What I'm getting at is if there is an independent chooser that decides to care or be responsible, or if that is just how Nic is put together?

No, there is no independent chooser deciding to care or be responsible. There is only dependence. Nic acts on what is happening in the moment and it can't be any other way.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

No the qualities were not chosen, they are simply what they are. As each quality of drink was thought about the qualities appeared in thought as words.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Again, nothing was chosen. In the counting there was just counting because it was the next step. It's where attention needed to go to work through the exercise.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

There was no experience of a mental function doing choosing, therefore, there is no function be seen.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No, there was no witnessing or announcement as to why one cup was picked up over the other, it just happened.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

No a feeling cannot choose anything, it can only be felt. I think when one has a feeling that a choice is being made it comes from identifying as the one feeling and and then the assumption that one is taking action based on that feeling. This is just an illusion though, there truly is no one or thing making the choice and feelings do not take action.

[Bluejay]

I don't know if that clarified that the caring is not mine or jumbled things more!

Clarity was achieved!

I think when one has a feeling that a choice is being made it comes from identifying as the one feeling and and then the assumption that one is taking action based on that feeling. This is just an illusion though, there truly is no one or thing making the choice and feelings do not take action.

OK. You sound clear on all this.

If you feel you are 100% clear that there is no inherent self/doer, do you want to answer the final questions?

Unless you have anything else in mind.

[Nikinutter]

I think I'm getting pretty clear after that, the cup inquiry really helped! I'm ready for the last questions.

[Bluejay]

Here you go. Enjoy!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see that there is no separate self?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over?

5) Describe how decisions are made & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Nikinutter]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not. The idea of a separate self is empty and always has been.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a persona, mask, identify, that people create as children to protect themselves from the outside world. Mine was created through not being loved or protected as a child. I learned that I needed to morph myself into what someone wanted me to be in order to receive love and at times i needed to hide and become invisible to protect my self from harm. Life has been a path of slowly seeing through this illusion and dissolving it.

3) How does it feel to see that there is no separate self?

Liberating

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over?

Seeing through my identity as a victim shattered the illusion for me and then the was no going back even when I wanted to at time.

5) Describe how decisions are made & give examples from experience.

Decisions are made based on what the moment calls for. I was going to take my dogs on a hike yesterday but when the moment came it was raining and muddy so we stayed indoors.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention is something we plan to do. I had intended to get a good night sleep last night but my partner was sick and was coughing beside me so that didn't happen.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will is the feeling that we are in control of our own actions, thoughts and or choices. Sitting here and thinking about this question all I can say is I'm writing what pops into my head. Free will tells me that I am choosing what to think and write about but I'm not choosing. My fingers are just swiping the letters to make words and I have no control over that. I do not know the next thought that will pop into my head and can control that no more than I can control that I didn't get a good night rest last night.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is the illusion that we freely pick one decision over another. Yesterday when doing the two cup inquiry I drank a smoothie rather than wine and there is no explanation as to why that one was chosen, it just happened.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is the belief that we can direct ours or someone else's behavior. When I leave for work today I expect to be at work on time but that ideal will be determined by many factors such as leaving on time, traffic, accidents etc. What will happen will happen and it's out of my control because my getting to work is dependent.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Everything just is and always has been. Things flow as they will and will continue to do so after this body of mine breathes its last breath. Everything is dependent on everything else; animals depend on trees to breath oxygen, trees depend on the sun to grow and provide this, a baby depends on a caregiver to survive. It's always been this way and can't be another way yet there is also an unknown to it all.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is no self therefore I am not responsible for anything. Responsibility is the sense that one has an obligation to take care of someone or something. I have two dogs that I care for. When they are hungry I feed them, dirty I wash them and walk them so they get exercise. I do what is called for in the moment to see they stay healthy and thrive because they depend on me.

6) Anything to add?

I struggled with responsibility a bit. I had troubles letting go of the idea that I'm not responsible. But, I found clarity on this when I sat with it.