What is This?

[avva]

So in your case, this sense of self/perspective, what DE (direct experience) components is it made of? Sensation? Image?

Sensation behind the eyes when the eyes are open. The sensation is more vague with eyes closed, but there is still a sense of self behind the ears.
The sense of agency is a thought.

[Bluejay]

Sensation behind the eyes when the eyes are open. The sensation is more vague with eyes closed, but there is still a sense of self behind the ears.
The sense of agency is a thought.

Great. Now look at the sensation that claims to be a self, can you find a self there? Does the sensation know anything about a self?

Is this sensation somehow different from other sensations in the body?

Each time there is a feeling of agency/self, look for it. If it's there, you should be able to easily find it.

This is where you need to look over and over. You may know that there's nothing, but it has to sink in experientially.

[avva]

Hi Henri

I will answer these questions on Friday.

avva

[avva]

Hi Henri

I spent the whole day on the road, looking for the self. This is what I found.

Now look at the sensation that claims to be a self, can you find a self there?

No. It’s all imagination.

Does the sensation know anything about a self?

No.

Is this sensation somehow different from other sensations in the body?

Yes. It’s imaginary.

Each time there is a feeling of agency/self, look for it. If it's there, you should be able to easily find it.

There’s no self. What happens is that the body does something and there is a lightning quick thought that says ‘I did it.’

[Bluejay]

Yes. It’s imaginary.

The sensation is just a sensation, but the labeling it as self is imaginary. Is that what you mean?

There’s no self. What happens is that the body does something and there is a lightning quick thought that says ‘I did it.’

Yes, that usually means the belief in self is still in place.

Usually before this quick thought, there's a sensation or feeling like 'I did it', do you notice this?

When these feelings/thoughts of self come up, separate the senses and look for who did it each time. Let it become a practice. Become curious about who it is that is doing, thinking, and so on.

Now since we're talking about doing something, here's a pointer on decisions:

The aim of this pointer is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Enjoy! :)

[avva]

The sensation is just a sensation, but the labeling it as self is imaginary. Is that what you mean?

Yes.

Usually before this quick thought, there's a sensation or feeling like 'I did it', do you notice this?

Whenever there is a sensation of the body moving, there is also the thought of 'I am doing this' or afterwards 'I did this.'

When these feelings/thoughts of self come up, separate the senses and look for who did it each time. Let it become a practice. Become curious about who it is that is doing, thinking, and so on.

I can't find anyone who is thinking or acting. However, there is still identification with the thinker and the doer. There are now extra thoughts added 'Nonsense. There's no I.' or 'The body is out of control.' or 'There's no doer.'

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

They just kind of appeared by themselves.

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The preferences just popped up.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

The decision was certain from the very beginning. There was no thinking about it.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No.

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

A thought that says ‘I am doing this.’

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

No.

[Bluejay]

A thought that says ‘I am doing this.’

And did the thought choose a drink? Can a thought choose?

I can't find anyone who is thinking or acting. However, there is still identification with the thinker and the doer. There are now extra thoughts added 'Nonsense. There's no I.' or 'The body is out of control.' or 'There's no doer.'

Yes, these thoughts could be called the cleanup crew.

Only thing to be careful of is to start believing 'There's no I' and stop inquiring, but doesn't seem like that's a problem.

Let's now explore the body:

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to? What is the direct experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question.

Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, eating, etc) before replying.

[avva]

And did the thought choose a drink? Can a thought choose?

No. It just happened.

Yes, these thoughts could be called the cleanup crew.

That’s funny. And they just happen too.

Only thing to be careful of is to start believing 'There's no I' and stop inquiring, but doesn't seem like that's a problem.

I keep looking.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

There is a sensation in/on the bottom, which can be interpreted as ‘weight’, but that is a label/thinking.

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Not with eyes closed, unless I touch my body with my hand.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

Without thinking and mental images, there is only a vague sensation of a boundary.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There is only a sensation felt in/on the the bottom.

Is there an inside or an outside?

No. Not with eyes closed. Unless I start touching things with my hands.

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to? What is the direct experience of the body?

A collection of sensations. Direct experience without the thoughts.
The body is sensed to be here and the world is sensed through the body.

After I did this exercise last night I opened my eyes and looked down at the body sitting on the chair. The body looked alien. The thought came ‘This is not my body.’ It also looked lifeless. It made me cry. Perhaps there is a fear here of losing the ‘me’, because there is so much love felt for the ‘me’. She is a good, loyal friend. There is a realisation as well that the ‘me’ has caused so much suffering, but this realisation is not recognised as important. Last night the body had a shower on its own.
This morning the body looks ‘mine’ again, although the face in the mirror looked a bit alien.

[Bluejay]

That’s funny. And they just happen too.

Yes! :)

Not with eyes closed, unless I touch my body with my hand.

Close your eyes. Then put your hand on your thigh, for example, and notice what tells you that there is a shape?

What is actually known in direct experience?

No. Not with eyes closed. Unless I start touching things with my hands.

When your eyes are closed and you touch something, are you feeling the outside, or a sensation?

What is outside and what is inside?

You might say "Well, what I see is outside, and I feel sensations inside," but when you look at something, where is the border between object and subject ("you")?

Close your eyes and see the object as a mental image. Where is the border now between seer and seen?

Now open eyes again and repeat this process a few times.

After I did this exercise last night I opened my eyes and looked down at the body sitting on the chair. The body looked alien. The thought came ‘This is not my body.’ It also looked lifeless. It made me cry. Perhaps there is a fear here of losing the ‘me’, because there is so much love felt for the ‘me’.
This morning the body looks ‘mine’ again, although the face in the mirror looked a bit alien.

This can happen as the perceptive filters start to loosen. Crying, grief, sadness can come up. Feel them as fully as you can and allow them to do their thing.

The fear is also natural. You can ask: What is the fear afraid of losing?

She is a good, loyal friend. There is a realisation as well that the ‘me’ has caused so much suffering, but this realisation is not recognised as important. Last night the body had a shower on its own.

Let's explore these a bit anyway and see if anything comes of it:

In what way is she a good, loyal friend?

And how has she caused suffering?

[avva]

Close your eyes. Then put your hand on your thigh, for example, and notice what tells you that there is a shape?

There is a sensation on the palm and fingers.

What is actually known in direct experience?

Sensations and thoughts.

When your eyes are closed and you touch something, are you feeling the outside, or a sensation?

A sensation.

What is outside and what is inside?

There is no difference.

You might say "Well, what I see is outside, and I feel sensations inside," but when you look at something, where is the border between object and subject ("you")?

There is no border.

Close your eyes and see the object as a mental image. Where is the border now between seer and seen?

Now open eyes again and repeat this process a few times.

There is no border.

In what way is she a good, loyal friend?

She has been with me (at least in thought) since I was a little girl. Commenting on everything, interpreting, trying to protect me.

And how has she caused suffering?

Trying to protect the persona has been a great struggle. The thoughts have been very critical towards me (and others as well), sometimes full of hatred. It has caused a lot of arguments with others, a lot of anger, guilt, and shame.

[Bluejay]

She has been with me (at least in thought) since I was a little girl. Commenting on everything, interpreting, trying to protect me.

That's a great perspective to have.

And to keep with the inquiry:

Has she been with you, or is it simply the arising of conditions giving the sense that there has been someone there?

Trying to protect the persona has been a great struggle. The thoughts have been very critical towards me (and others as well), sometimes full of hatred. It has caused a lot of arguments with others, a lot of anger, guilt, and shame.

Do you notice that this criticalness/hatred is a way to avoid feeling / being fully present in the body?

[avva]

Has she been with you, or is it simply the arising of conditions giving the sense that there has been someone there?

She was never real. There was/is? a sense that there was someone there.

Do you notice that this criticalness/hatred is a way to avoid feeling / being fully present in the body?

No, I have never noticed that. Please explain.
There is a growing feeling of disappointment here. There is sadness. A growing sense of failure. The ego can’t wake up.

[Bluejay]

She was never real. There was/is? a sense that there was someone there.

Separate the senses (see, hear, feel). What creates this sense that there was/is someone there?

No, I have never noticed that. Please explain.

Instead of feeling, for example, hurt/sadness/vulnerable, there can be a distraction into critical/hatred because that is seen as a more comfortable alternative.

This happens all the time when a story is running, such as "I'm not good enough," or "This is never going to work."

When stories like that come up, ask: What is going on in the body right now that is being avoided?

There is a growing feeling of disappointment here. There is sadness. A growing sense of failure. The ego can’t wake up.

This is normal as it is seen that there never was any self there. The self can act as a defense mechanism for feeling, so when the illusion begins to weaken, emotions can bubble up.

No, the ego is an idea/thought. A thought cannot wake up.

Can you stay with these feelings as they come up? Just feel everything fully.

Notice any stories or judgments about what is going on, and return to the sensations in the body.

You're doing great. The cleanup crew is digging up some stuff right now :)

[avva]

Hi Henri

Separate the senses (see, hear, feel). What creates this sense that there was/is someone there?

There is still some identification with the experiencer, the thinker, and the doer. Basically, identification with avva.

Also, there is an attempt here to get rid of all sense of identity, ‘I’ in every form.
But there is aliveness and awareness. Isn’t that my identity? In Ilona’s videos she also talks about you as being, as presence. So ‘I am awareness’ is not correct because awareness is impersonal and ‘I’ is just a thought. However, I can’t get rid of the sense that I am alive, aware, and present. The ‘I’ in thought is false, but there is awareness. And awareness doesn’t think or speak, and can’t say ‘I’. There is a lot of confusion.

Also, there is struggle around the idea of no-one being here but there is work to be done, like looking and inquiring (and some say meditating for many hours). If I am not managing this body-mind, and there is no-one here, then what can be done? Is there a ‘me’ that is helplessly watching what the character is doing? And what is actually controlling the body? Is it the mind? But that’s what I have always thought. The ‘I’ was the mind. What is new now? The character is confused.

This happens all the time when a story is running, such as "I'm not good enough," or "This is never going to work."

Avva definitely has the ‘I am not worthy’ story going.

Can you stay with these feelings as they come up? Just feel everything fully.

Yes. Confusion, frustration, helplessness, hopelessness.

[Bluejay]

There is still some identification with the experiencer, the thinker, and the doer. Basically, identification with avva.

The key is to keep separating the senses whenever that happens and stay in direct experience. Really look for the one that is claiming to be there.

Also, there is an attempt here to get rid of all sense of identity, ‘I’ in every form.
But there is aliveness and awareness. Isn’t that my identity? In Ilona’s videos she also talks about you as being, as presence. So ‘I am awareness’ is not correct because awareness is impersonal and ‘I’ is just a thought. However, I can’t get rid of the sense that I am alive, aware, and present. The ‘I’ in thought is false, but there is awareness. And awareness doesn’t think or speak, and can’t say ‘I’. There is a lot of confusion.

Don't go too deep into trying to figure this out through thinking. It will become clear in time.

That said, it's good to distinguish here between the separate self, which is what we're exploring here at LU, and the sense of being alive.

The fetter model breaks this down quite well. The separate self is fetter 1, and the complete loss of self/center is fetter 8. So when the separate self is seen through, you see that there is no doer, but you will still feel the aliveness, awareness, presence, and that you are 'here'. Does that make sense?

Also, look at awareness and aliveness, what is it in direct experience?

Also, there is struggle around the idea of no-one being here but there is work to be done, like looking and inquiring (and some say meditating for many hours). If I am not managing this body-mind, and there is no-one here, then what can be done? Is there a ‘me’ that is helplessly watching what the character is doing? And what is actually controlling the body? Is it the mind? But that’s what I have always thought.

Great question!

There has never been a self, so how have things been happening?

It's not that there is a self now and we are getting rid of it, but there never was one in the first place.

Action does not mean that there is an agent there.

A funny analogy might be: If you see that there is no real santa claus, then how will the kids get their presents?

The ‘I’ was the mind. What is new now? The character is confused.

Can you find someone that is confused, or is there just a thought of confusion?

This is a good sign, because to wake up you have to go beyond thoughts. They have no answers here, and usually the confusion is a distraction from feeling something.

Do you notice if you're avoiding something?

Yes. Confusion, frustration, helplessness, hopelessness.

Excellent. You may even find that there are other emotions as these are felt.

You can ask: Is there another emotion under this one?