Assistance with true awakening

[Amanita]

I'm going to take another day with these inquires.

Thanks!

[Amanita]

So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear?
There isn't anything to find, things are just happening/appearing.

Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

No, outside of this immediacy is thought telling the story of things appearing.

Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

No, things happen regardless.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

No, time is thought, there's just now in direct experience.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

It just is, there's no moving.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No, there's no beginning or end of it.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Can't be said.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

No start, no end, just is.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

There is no becoming. Past is a thought.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Thought.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Thoughts about time. Thoughts about past and future make time seem real, but DE is just this.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

No, outside of this immediacy is thought telling the story of things appearing.

Very good looking!

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?
Love
Rali

[Amanita]

Making me go out on a cold day that's for sure lol

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No, separation is thought. The immediate moment is not separate.

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

It's thought. Division is only thought, without the thought of division I'm just left with this.

Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

There's no "outside of me" it's all one movement.

Is there an owner of being?

No, but being or aliveness is happening.

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

There are colors, shapes and sounds of so called others. I certainly can't find an "I" in others from direct experience, I just have whats here.

Is there a “you”?

No, just thoughts about a so called "me". The DE is sensations and thoughts arising.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

Making me go out on a cold day that's for sure lol

Is there anything wrong with “cold” sensations? :)) I’m sorry

There are colors, shapes and sounds of so called others. I certainly can't find an "I" in others from direct experience, I just have what’s here.

Wonderful!!

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?
Is there anything else that you want to explore together?

We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?

Love
Rali

[Amanita]

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

DE is more prevalent instead of attention being more focused on just the thoughts. The relationship to sensations and thoughts changed, concepts were seen as thoughts. The sensations/thoughts arising continue on.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

Seeing DE for what it is, just whats presenting arising.

Is seeking still going on?

Yes, although I'm struggling with this question. From DE, which is all there is, there's just this. Thoughts come up that can be seen as seeking, but thoughts just arise. I see people talk about "knowing" this at a "gut level" not just intellectual and that isn't what's happening here, even though these are clearly expectations and thoughts. Like if you know this, YOU KNOW IT, there's no doubt. That isn't the case here. Looking happens, yet the seeking continues, which is just what's arising. It's like I'm not convinced of this, yet there's no one that could ever get convinced of this.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

It's like when looking I can see what's being pointed. Then once that looking moves onto some other thoughts/sensations the clarity fades in a way or the stories of the mind become dominate, which is only a problem if thoughts seen as a problem...

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

No.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

DE is more prevalent instead of attention being more focused on just the thoughts. The relationship to sensations and thoughts changed, concepts were seen as thoughts. The sensations/thoughts arising continue on.

Awesome!

Yes, although I'm struggling with this question. From DE, which is all there is, there's just this. Thoughts come up that can be seen as seeking, but thoughts just arise. I see people talk about "knowing" this at a "gut level" not just intellectual and that isn't what's happening here, even though these are clearly expectations and thoughts. Like if you know this, YOU KNOW IT, there's no doubt. That isn't the case here. Looking happens, yet the seeking continues, which is just what's arising. It's like I'm not convinced of this, yet there's no one that could ever get convinced of this.

Is there any meaning/knowing outside of thought? Is there a KNOWER, a witness of some kind that KNOWS stuff? There is knowing/noticing of what is happening which is not separate from what is happening. It also doesn't care why and how things are happening. However, KNOWING how things are is the domain of thoughts. Thoughts are self-organizing. As we already saw there is no thinker. When you have two opposing views (i.e. view of reality) their validity has to be checked. What used to happen was if a new idea fits with the rest of the beliefs, it stays, and it is disregarded if it doesn’t (confirmation bias). This method saves energy so it was used for a really long time. Now we’ve added a second method for dealing with opposing concepts – to check with our senses which one truly describes what is happening. This “stubbornness”/”doubtful nature” comes from that confirmation bias as you have not just one thought but a system of thoughts forming your view/belief system of reality. So to “reduce the resistance’ you need to painstakingly examine all thoughts one by one as they appear in order for thoughts to self-organise and form a new core of beliefs. And I underlie self-organise as this is not in your control, it just happens (you are not the thinker). I’ve basically introduced a virus thought (LOOK!) that causes all thoughts to be reorganised around the experience :). That "knowing this at a gut level" happens when there are no more false beliefs that cause friction. With some it all happens at once, with others it may take years for all conditioning to be seen through. It just is how it is.

"Crossing the gate" is only a beginning, not an end. You have not crossed the Gate of happily ever after; no, the Gate is a tiny first step, a very important one, but not a final one by any means. Nothing changed, but everything looks different. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “yourself” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all the "mess", to settle in and adjust.
When someone we know dies, it takes time for that to "sink in". It's not that we don't believe that the person has died. It is just they are still part of our lives - we open the wardrobe and their clothes are still there, we walk in the park and we remember when we used to do it together. It takes time to readjust our lives to living without them. That process of “sinking in” can be observed in many other situations – like being diagnosed with a life changing disease, losing a job that we had for a long time etc. Even though the change is sudden and quick, it can be perceived as a long process – it can feel as though something is still sinking in, or hasn’t yet sunk in.

The point applies equally to habitual patterns of thought and activity, which similarly reflect how our lives are organised. When the established patterns of a life are disturbed, thought cannot adapt to all of this in an instant, simply by revising all of our old beliefs. Much of the old organisation lingers on, in the guise of a world that we continue to experience and in habitual patterns of thought and activity that our surroundings continue to elicit. That very much applies to seeing the illusion of an “I” - it’s quite a sudden change with a relatively long process of adapting to this change. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “yourself” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all old beliefs and conditioning.

To “deal” with this, question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being.
There might still be expectations, confusion, and doubt. That’s quite normal at this stage. You may be swaying between “I get it” and “I don’t get it.” You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

No.

Just because there are doubtful thoughts ABOUT an "I", does that mean there is an “I”? Ironically, that is the illusion :) The question here is what wishes these thoughts not to appear?

Is there anything else that you want to explore together?

Love
Rali

[Amanita]

Is there any meaning/knowing outside of thought?

No, there's just sensations arising.

Is there a KNOWER, a witness of some kind that KNOWS stuff?

No.

I’ve basically introduced a virus thought (LOOK!) that causes all thoughts to be reorganised around the experience :)

A Virus or an anti-virus, I'm not sure ;)

It takes time to readjust our lives to living without them. That process of “sinking in” can be observed in many other situations – like being diagnosed with a life changing disease, losing a job that we had for a long time etc. Even though the change is sudden and quick, it can be perceived as a long process – it can feel as though something is still sinking in, or hasn’t yet sunk in.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?

It's only ever thoughts that want this to be different. Otherwise there's just this, including the thoughts.

Just because there are doubtful thoughts ABOUT an "I", does that mean there is an “I”?

Nope, the "I" is just a thought taken as true.

the question here is what wishes these thoughts not to appear?

Thoughts are wanting thoughts to not appear.

Is there anything else that you want to explore together?

I don't think so. It's just about coming back to looking at DE, there's no one doing it, but it's happening.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

A Virus or an anti-virus, I'm not sure ;)

Well depends on the perspective ;) Technically, there is nothing wrong with the story of “I” – it’s just a different experience. There is no a beneficiary :)

It's only ever thoughts that want this to be different. Otherwise there's just this, including the thoughts.

Can thoughts do things, think, etc.? It’s just a thought ABOUT wanting; not that the thoughts have desires, right?

So… Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?
Love
Rali

[Amanita]

Can thoughts do things, think, etc.?

Thoughts can't do anything, a thought of wanting something to be different can arise.

It’s just a thought ABOUT wanting; not that the thoughts have desires, right?

Yeah, thoughts have no self essence or anything. Thoughts just arise as they do about whatever topic.

So… Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Yes.

Would you like to answer those?

Sure.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita

So… Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Yes.

Yay! :)
Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Love
Rali

[Amanita]

Sorry it took so long to reply, just had a big holiday in the US, but have been looking with the questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Nope, no separate entity anywhere. It was never there, just believed to be there, which gave it a solid feel. It doesn't stand up to investigation.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is a thought believed to be real. It starts with all the definitions of "me" like sex, age, job, race etc. All the labels and the story of "me" through "time". The memories of the past and thoughts about the "present" and "future" create a sense of movement through time that adds a sense of solidity to the whole thing. The thoughts and emotions are happening automatically, along with everything else. There's the movement of experience happening with no one in control. When investigated the self is seen to be the momentary arising in thought with no persistence.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Life is "lighter" in a way. There's a more natural flow to things. Thoughts and emotions still come up of course as do all other sensations. There's less taking the flow of thoughts and stories are these real things. They still happen, but the content is seen for what they are, not a real thing, but a temporary appearance that morphs instantly.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Examining the arising and passing of sensations. At one point I was typing on my keyboard and realized when my finger isn't touching a key the sensation disappears, vanishes into nothing. For some reason that really struck me. When sensations are appearing they are happening and then instantaneously just poof into nothing. It's just happening, can't say when or how, it just is. Examining the "flow" of time was also significant in seeing the instantaneousness of every so called moment.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisions still occurs as before but there's no one making it. Thoughts can come up thinking about the best options and then a decision is made, it's quite simple. I decided to buy a drink at the store the other day. Saw a picture of it outside, memory comes in about drinking it in the past and then buying of the drink happens. It's not happening to any person, but the seeming causes and conditions make the decision happen with no one there. It's the movement of experience, it just happens on.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

It's another thought/concept with no real meaning. People think we choose our actions and such but it's just movement going on without any one there. Free will or no free will, both are ideas and concepts. Who is there to have or not have free will?? Nothing.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

These are basically the same questions in slightly different variants. Choices happen same as decisions. It's not happening to any person, yet choices and preferences remain. I decided to make some tea because it's cold and tea tastes good, I could go into infinite more detail about it, but it just happens.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

There is no control. No one to be in control or anyone to be in control of. There's this happening now, forever unfolding. There was an idea of needing to be in control, a fear of losing control. There was never control just the illusion of control. This illusion of control and wanting to be in control as much as possible certainly caused a lot of anxiety and fear when things went "out of my control".

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There's no one here to be responsible for things, but things are still taken care of. Life and responsibilities continue on as before without the reference point of it being "me" doing it.


6) Anything to add?
Thanks so much for help looking at this! The seeking has dropped. The looking for something else in some future time or somewhere else other than right here, is gone. There's this here, which is the only place there's ever been, it was just missed.

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanita
Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers! You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

Also, if you want further exploring, I'd suggest these teleconferences:
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on YouTube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________
Meet up with Vince (For LU seekers & guides)
Our next weekly one is : November 13 2023 06:00 AM Sydney DAYLIGHT SAVING time - AEDT (still Sunday for many)
There is also one each Saturday at 9pm(AEDT)
Please note that it's always the same time on the same link
Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
You can convert time zones here; https://www.worldtimebuddy.com
Click here to Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035
Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com
__________________________________________________
Ilona's Meetings

To register send Ilona an email to
admin@ilonaciunaite.com
Looking forward 🙂
__________________________________________________
(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
Write to them for the next meeting. Ilona’s is April 9th.
For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Love
Rali

[Amanita]

Thanks so much again for the help!

I'll definitely look into the resources provided and continue to actively look!