Wau Elad. Yes yes yes here, I see it now, the belief in that thought made me unsure, so sneaky these little thoughts are hahhaaa.
"Associations, habits, cause and effect exsist conventionally speaking. And looked in direct experience in real time no one is in control of it, no one is making it happen. Look - can you see this?"
Yes I think I can see it. So freeing!! Then thoughts come "Are you sure you can see this?"
Association and seaming order of thoughts just happen by themselves. Just popping up from nowhere. No need for anybody doing it.Just a little more "complicated! than a single thought, yet just thought. So amazing actually!! How could it be any other way since there is no I that is doing thinking or associating or anything else. Some relief here. Like something became a bit clearer, but unsure if I really got this and how to go deeper....
I could see when writing a list of words as you suggested that the associating just happend by itself, no doer thinker needed there. What an amazing thoughtmachine we have.
Thank You already
Re: Thank You already
Beautiful! It's happening.Wau Elad. Yes yes yes here, I see it now, the belief in that thought made me unsure, so sneaky these little thoughts are hahhaaa.
"Associations, habits, cause and effect exsist conventionally speaking. And looked in direct experience in real time no one is in control of it, no one is making it happen. Look - can you see this?"
Yes I think I can see it. So freeing!! Then thoughts come "Are you sure you can see this?"
Association and seaming order of thoughts just happen by themselves. Just popping up from nowhere. No need for anybody doing it.Just a little more "complicated! than a single thought, yet just thought. So amazing actually!! How could it be any other way since there is no I that is doing thinking or associating or anything else. Some relief here. Like something became a bit clearer, but unsure if I really got this and how to go deeper....
I could see when writing a list of words as you suggested that the associating just happend by itself, no doer thinker needed there. What an amazing thoughtmachine we have.
Keep noticing how thoughts come by themselves, how the current thought does not know what comes next.
"Yes I think I can see it. So freeing!! Then thoughts come "Are you sure you can see this?""
Right doubt comes by itself without a chooser or a controller and it is not a self....
Try this exercise...
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Thank You already
“I” labelling
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?
Let me know how you go and what you notice.
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?
Let me know how you go and what you notice.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
Pohjantahti
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
Re: Thank You already
Thank you for this exercise!
I got the same amount thoughts on both sides. Some thoughts are so subtle like I do not find them sort of thing and some got "me" thinking "is this I thought" or not. Also thoughts like "time is running down, come on thoughts". Feels like I should do this again....
Start thinking "why did the thoughts come on both sides?" and the same amount, like something was doing it but it just happends that way. Maybe I should do it 10min and see what happens.
When my eyes looked at things in the room then just labeling those thing as just one word like "pillow", "Lights" etc. Then those thoughts that wanted some thoughts to come to make the exercise happen came. Those I see as"I thoughts, The"I" wanting to do the exercise right....
Just want to tell You this feels so right what we are doing here!
I got the same amount thoughts on both sides. Some thoughts are so subtle like I do not find them sort of thing and some got "me" thinking "is this I thought" or not. Also thoughts like "time is running down, come on thoughts". Feels like I should do this again....
Start thinking "why did the thoughts come on both sides?" and the same amount, like something was doing it but it just happends that way. Maybe I should do it 10min and see what happens.
When my eyes looked at things in the room then just labeling those thing as just one word like "pillow", "Lights" etc. Then those thoughts that wanted some thoughts to come to make the exercise happen came. Those I see as"I thoughts, The"I" wanting to do the exercise right....
Just want to tell You this feels so right what we are doing here!
Re: Thank You already
I am glad to hear! Yes, maybe do one or more rounds of this and see what else is noticed. Also simultaneously see how either way, self-thoughts, not-self-thoughts, dont-know-thoughts, doubt-thoughts - all happen by themselves and are not equal to a self.Thank you for this exercise!
I got the same amount thoughts on both sides. Some thoughts are so subtle like I do not find them sort of thing and some got "me" thinking "is this I thought" or not. Also thoughts like "time is running down, come on thoughts". Feels like I should do this again....
Start thinking "why did the thoughts come on both sides?" and the same amount, like something was doing it but it just happends that way. Maybe I should do it 10min and see what happens.
When my eyes looked at things in the room then just labeling those thing as just one word like "pillow", "Lights" etc. Then those thoughts that wanted some thoughts to come to make the exercise happen came. Those I see as"I thoughts, The"I" wanting to do the exercise right....
Just want to tell You this feels so right what we are doing here!
And when you are ready for another step, sit down for some minutes and investigate: what controls attention? Can you control attention, when it stays, when it moves?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
Pohjantahti
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
Re: Thank You already
Yes, self, no-self, doubt and not knowing thoughts are happening all by themselves and not the self doing it, how freeing...
Observung attention:
Started to look at a green vase on the table and trying to keep attention on that, after a while suddenly I saw something else that took the attention and then my friends voice in the other room took the attention. So seemingly controll in the beginning but really not. Attention moves by itself. Seen that so many times trying to keep the mind on the breath while meditating and getting lost in thoughts, emotions, bodily sensations and getting frustrated lol instead of just letting it all be as it is. Why try to controll something that is just happening and is nit under my controll...starting to taste some freedom/ relief in that....
Observung attention:
Started to look at a green vase on the table and trying to keep attention on that, after a while suddenly I saw something else that took the attention and then my friends voice in the other room took the attention. So seemingly controll in the beginning but really not. Attention moves by itself. Seen that so many times trying to keep the mind on the breath while meditating and getting lost in thoughts, emotions, bodily sensations and getting frustrated lol instead of just letting it all be as it is. Why try to controll something that is just happening and is nit under my controll...starting to taste some freedom/ relief in that....
Re: Thank You already
Beautiful!Yes, self, no-self, doubt and not knowing thoughts are happening all by themselves and not the self doing it, how freeing...
Observung attention:
Started to look at a green vase on the table and trying to keep attention on that, after a while suddenly I saw something else that took the attention and then my friends voice in the other room took the attention. So seemingly controll in the beginning but really not. Attention moves by itself. Seen that so many times trying to keep the mind on the breath while meditating and getting lost in thoughts, emotions, bodily sensations and getting frustrated lol instead of just letting it all be as it is. Why try to controll something that is just happening and is nit under my controll...starting to taste some freedom/ relief in that....
Okay lets look a little more at words and thoughts.
What does the word I refer to in direct experience?
Can you find anything concrete that is I?
Is I in direct experience more then a word, a thought?
Can a word/thought do something or know something?
-----
And lets look at choice:
1. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple.
2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?
3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?
4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?
5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
7. Put your hands on your laps. Count down from 5 to 0 and raise one of them. Could you decide which one? Can a thought make an arm move? Can you make an arm move? Can you do something before the arm moves that clearly and surely makes it move?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
Pohjantahti
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
Re: Thank You already
Hi there
About the "I":
The word I refer in direct experience to nothing. It is just a habit/convenient to use, but the unquestioning/belief in the "I" makes one believe in it. I can not find anything concrete that is "I" in direct experience. Yes it is just a word and words are thoughts. It is just that I have taken this word to be "me"( a feeling that it is something concrete) without reallly questioning it or looking closely what it is.
And yes, a word/thought can not do anything or know something. It is so logical,obvious right now, yet there is a worry that "I" will forget it and that "I" falls back to the old habit of believing it again.
About the "choice":
1. On count of 5 raising the arm or not. Well I did it several times. The first time it felt like I chose. I counted down and paused and then thought right and lifted that arm, but when I look closely, it was just the thought right arising in the mind. Since I can not choose what thought arise then I could not have chosen actually.
2. Choosing to fall asleep? No not at all (this was easy)
3. Choosing the content of the next thought? No way at all.
4. No I can not choose what physical sensation arises next. That is very clear.
5. I can not choose next emotion, mind state or attitute that will arise next. Very clear
6. Think of a number between 1-20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. It seems like the number just comes up by itself, just appears from thoughts, but here I am not as clear though
7. Hands on my laps. Counting down fr 5 to 0. Raise one of them. Could I decide which one was raised?
This was also a bit harder, but it felt like the arm just got raised. Sort of like the thought came and claimed that it decided staight after the arm raised. The arm "listens" to the instruction and gets raised. No need to do it. It just happens.
I think I will be playing with these exercises several timed during the day. It also helps me to read what we write here several times to let it sink and to remind myself.... It feels a bit "lighter" here today. Like some heavyness of striving dropped off a little bit. Thank You for doing this with me!! I so appreciate You doint this with me.
About the "I":
The word I refer in direct experience to nothing. It is just a habit/convenient to use, but the unquestioning/belief in the "I" makes one believe in it. I can not find anything concrete that is "I" in direct experience. Yes it is just a word and words are thoughts. It is just that I have taken this word to be "me"( a feeling that it is something concrete) without reallly questioning it or looking closely what it is.
And yes, a word/thought can not do anything or know something. It is so logical,obvious right now, yet there is a worry that "I" will forget it and that "I" falls back to the old habit of believing it again.
About the "choice":
1. On count of 5 raising the arm or not. Well I did it several times. The first time it felt like I chose. I counted down and paused and then thought right and lifted that arm, but when I look closely, it was just the thought right arising in the mind. Since I can not choose what thought arise then I could not have chosen actually.
2. Choosing to fall asleep? No not at all (this was easy)
3. Choosing the content of the next thought? No way at all.
4. No I can not choose what physical sensation arises next. That is very clear.
5. I can not choose next emotion, mind state or attitute that will arise next. Very clear
6. Think of a number between 1-20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. It seems like the number just comes up by itself, just appears from thoughts, but here I am not as clear though
7. Hands on my laps. Counting down fr 5 to 0. Raise one of them. Could I decide which one was raised?
This was also a bit harder, but it felt like the arm just got raised. Sort of like the thought came and claimed that it decided staight after the arm raised. The arm "listens" to the instruction and gets raised. No need to do it. It just happens.
I think I will be playing with these exercises several timed during the day. It also helps me to read what we write here several times to let it sink and to remind myself.... It feels a bit "lighter" here today. Like some heavyness of striving dropped off a little bit. Thank You for doing this with me!! I so appreciate You doint this with me.
Re: Thank You already
Beautiful Mica,
A few comments:
"1. On count of 5 raising the arm or not. Well I did it several times. The first time it felt like I chose. I counted down and paused and then thought right and lifted that arm, but when I look closely, it was just the thought right arising in the mind. Since I can not choose what thought arise then I could not have chosen actually."
Yes, a feeling of choosing can exsit. That is what can make it confusing. The clarification comes for paying attention to how this feeling and/or thought of choice emerged. Direct experience will show it just came sontaneously without chooser or self. And also that between a feeling of choise and an actual action is a mystery. We find no executing self or direct "connector" between the feeling of choice and action. So no real controller here. Can you see this?
"2. Choosing to fall asleep? No not at all (this was easy)
3. Choosing the content of the next thought? No way at all.
4. No I can not choose what physical sensation arises next. That is very clear.
5. I can not choose next emotion, mind state or attitute that will arise next. Very clear"
Nice
6". Think of a number between 1-20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. It seems like the number just comes up by itself, just appears from thoughts, but here I am not as clear though"
I think it is about the same thing. Mixing up "a thought of anticipation/prediction or choice" with actual chooser. Those kind of thoughts clearly exist and are part of conventional functioning, they are fine. The point is to see they are spontaneous selfless phenomena too. Let me know what you see in investigating this.
"7. Hands on my laps. Counting down fr 5 to 0. Raise one of them. Could I decide which one was raised?
This was also a bit harder, but it felt like the arm just got raised. Sort of like the thought came and claimed that it decided staight after the arm raised. The arm "listens" to the instruction and gets raised. No need to do it. It just happens."
Right, can anything fully predict or directly be seen to cause what happens in the moment before it does in the exact unique way that it does. The challange is not to mix up rational analysis with direct observation.
"I think I will be playing with these exercises several timed during the day. It also helps me to read what we write here several times to let it sink and to remind myself.... It feels a bit "lighter" here today. Like some heavyness of striving dropped off a little bit. Thank You for doing this with me!! I so appreciate You doint this with me."
Beautiful. Please watch the video below regarding the fear of losing clarity. Experiencing clarity come and go is very normal after seeing no self. It happens by itself, a natural process. Gradually we see that the idea of someone who has it permanently is again just a thought. And all that being said, we wanna aim for a seeing to feel clear without doubt.
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w?si=ZspIay-CAmB954Op
Please do these two exercises also:
Stream Exercise
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
Body Exercise
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
A few comments:
"1. On count of 5 raising the arm or not. Well I did it several times. The first time it felt like I chose. I counted down and paused and then thought right and lifted that arm, but when I look closely, it was just the thought right arising in the mind. Since I can not choose what thought arise then I could not have chosen actually."
Yes, a feeling of choosing can exsit. That is what can make it confusing. The clarification comes for paying attention to how this feeling and/or thought of choice emerged. Direct experience will show it just came sontaneously without chooser or self. And also that between a feeling of choise and an actual action is a mystery. We find no executing self or direct "connector" between the feeling of choice and action. So no real controller here. Can you see this?
"2. Choosing to fall asleep? No not at all (this was easy)
3. Choosing the content of the next thought? No way at all.
4. No I can not choose what physical sensation arises next. That is very clear.
5. I can not choose next emotion, mind state or attitute that will arise next. Very clear"
Nice
6". Think of a number between 1-20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. It seems like the number just comes up by itself, just appears from thoughts, but here I am not as clear though"
I think it is about the same thing. Mixing up "a thought of anticipation/prediction or choice" with actual chooser. Those kind of thoughts clearly exist and are part of conventional functioning, they are fine. The point is to see they are spontaneous selfless phenomena too. Let me know what you see in investigating this.
"7. Hands on my laps. Counting down fr 5 to 0. Raise one of them. Could I decide which one was raised?
This was also a bit harder, but it felt like the arm just got raised. Sort of like the thought came and claimed that it decided staight after the arm raised. The arm "listens" to the instruction and gets raised. No need to do it. It just happens."
Right, can anything fully predict or directly be seen to cause what happens in the moment before it does in the exact unique way that it does. The challange is not to mix up rational analysis with direct observation.
"I think I will be playing with these exercises several timed during the day. It also helps me to read what we write here several times to let it sink and to remind myself.... It feels a bit "lighter" here today. Like some heavyness of striving dropped off a little bit. Thank You for doing this with me!! I so appreciate You doint this with me."
Beautiful. Please watch the video below regarding the fear of losing clarity. Experiencing clarity come and go is very normal after seeing no self. It happens by itself, a natural process. Gradually we see that the idea of someone who has it permanently is again just a thought. And all that being said, we wanna aim for a seeing to feel clear without doubt.
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w?si=ZspIay-CAmB954Op
Please do these two exercises also:
Stream Exercise
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
Body Exercise
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
Pohjantahti
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
Re: Thank You already
Hi again Elad!
Yes I can see that the feeling of choosing/I chose this -thought arising just arised spontaniously. So subtle that "I" assumed there was a chooser there. Yes - no executing self or chooser, just a feeling and thought tha arose....Yes what a mystery tha a feeling arises of making a choice and action happens without a "connector". Amazing... like a little seed that becomes a huge tree, it is a miracle....
Yes so clarifying that i mixed the "thought of anticipation/prediction or choice" with an actual chooser. Yes you are right: "they are spontanious selfless phenomena too". This I will continue to investigate for sure even more.
"Can anything fully predict or directly be seen to cause what happens in the moment before it does in the exact unique way that it does. The challange is not to mix up rational analysis with direct observation."
No definitely not, it is just assumption that it does and that is a thought :-)
Yes I really want to continue this exploration to really see clearly without a doubt!!
The example with a mountain stream: it does not choose anything and it is not separete but a complete whole and changing continuosly and moment to moment together with the water, ground, weather stones wind.... Yes "An ever-changing pattern" describes it beautifully! No I can not find anything at all that autonomously intervenes into life. Yes all is part of the overall flow.
No I can not find any autonomous entity that chooses what to wear or eat for lunch. It is like you wrote dependant on what is available, purpose, time etc. Good question: "If responsible then to what and for what? Life is just happening all by itself. All connected and interdependant.
BODY EXERCISE:
When I close my eyes I can not know how tall the body is or what the weight/volume is. In actual exp the body have no form or shpe and no boundary between the body and the chair. There is this sensation of touch and sensation of kind of vibration.
Is there inside and outside: Cant find it. Just a bit of vibration that seems to be where the body is supposed to be. Somehow inside and outside does not apply when experiencing directly. I can not feel any organs, blood etc and the outside is just a word and in direct experience It is just space and where the inside stops and outside starts seems not that there is any line, border there at all...
"What does the word laber ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body? When closed eyes I can not feel any body just more like o localised sense of liveness... when I washed my hands I felt sensations in my hands. With eys open the body feels solid but with eyes open not so at all. Somehow it also feels like I dont sense where the body ends. Hmmmm. what does this tell me about the body? it seems so tangible when I see "my" body but when I close my eys it is completely not solid, tangible at all. Now I am trying to understand this and some confusion comes up. Tell me what I miss or what else look deeper if I am not looking carefully enough. Have learned that now, that it is easy to miss some things and not look deeply enough...
Yes I can see that the feeling of choosing/I chose this -thought arising just arised spontaniously. So subtle that "I" assumed there was a chooser there. Yes - no executing self or chooser, just a feeling and thought tha arose....Yes what a mystery tha a feeling arises of making a choice and action happens without a "connector". Amazing... like a little seed that becomes a huge tree, it is a miracle....
Yes so clarifying that i mixed the "thought of anticipation/prediction or choice" with an actual chooser. Yes you are right: "they are spontanious selfless phenomena too". This I will continue to investigate for sure even more.
"Can anything fully predict or directly be seen to cause what happens in the moment before it does in the exact unique way that it does. The challange is not to mix up rational analysis with direct observation."
No definitely not, it is just assumption that it does and that is a thought :-)
Yes I really want to continue this exploration to really see clearly without a doubt!!
The example with a mountain stream: it does not choose anything and it is not separete but a complete whole and changing continuosly and moment to moment together with the water, ground, weather stones wind.... Yes "An ever-changing pattern" describes it beautifully! No I can not find anything at all that autonomously intervenes into life. Yes all is part of the overall flow.
No I can not find any autonomous entity that chooses what to wear or eat for lunch. It is like you wrote dependant on what is available, purpose, time etc. Good question: "If responsible then to what and for what? Life is just happening all by itself. All connected and interdependant.
BODY EXERCISE:
When I close my eyes I can not know how tall the body is or what the weight/volume is. In actual exp the body have no form or shpe and no boundary between the body and the chair. There is this sensation of touch and sensation of kind of vibration.
Is there inside and outside: Cant find it. Just a bit of vibration that seems to be where the body is supposed to be. Somehow inside and outside does not apply when experiencing directly. I can not feel any organs, blood etc and the outside is just a word and in direct experience It is just space and where the inside stops and outside starts seems not that there is any line, border there at all...
"What does the word laber ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body? When closed eyes I can not feel any body just more like o localised sense of liveness... when I washed my hands I felt sensations in my hands. With eys open the body feels solid but with eyes open not so at all. Somehow it also feels like I dont sense where the body ends. Hmmmm. what does this tell me about the body? it seems so tangible when I see "my" body but when I close my eys it is completely not solid, tangible at all. Now I am trying to understand this and some confusion comes up. Tell me what I miss or what else look deeper if I am not looking carefully enough. Have learned that now, that it is easy to miss some things and not look deeply enough...
Re: Thank You already
Hi Mica, you are doing great, seeing is happening. Lets just deepen and clarify it some more.
"Yes I can see that the feeling of choosing/I chose this -thought arising just arised spontaniously. So subtle that "I" assumed there was a chooser there. Yes - no executing self or chooser, just a feeling and thought tha arose....Yes what a mystery tha a feeling arises of making a choice and action happens without a "connector". Amazing... like a little seed that becomes a huge tree, it is a miracle...."
<3
"Yes so clarifying that i mixed the "thought of anticipation/prediction or choice" with an actual chooser. Yes you are right: "they are spontanious selfless phenomena too". This I will continue to investigate for sure even more."
Lovely. Try just sitting with a notebook in an enjoyable place and write down things you notice happening automatically without doer/chooser/controller, in thoughts and movements. Fun way to deepen this.
"No I can not find any autonomous entity that chooses what to wear or eat for lunch. It is like you wrote dependant on what is available, purpose, time etc. Good question: "If responsible then to what and for what? Life is just happening all by itself. All connected and interdependant."
Right! So: Is there or has there ever been a separate self, a doer?
"BODY EXERCISE:
When I close my eyes I can not know how tall the body is or what the weight/volume is. In actual exp the body have no form or shpe and no boundary between the body and the chair. There is this sensation of touch and sensation of kind of vibration.
Is there inside and outside: Cant find it. Just a bit of vibration that seems to be where the body is supposed to be. Somehow inside and outside does not apply when experiencing directly. I can not feel any organs, blood etc and the outside is just a word and in direct experience It is just space and where the inside stops and outside starts seems not that there is any line, border there at all...
"What does the word laber ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body? When closed eyes I can not feel any body just more like o localised sense of liveness... when I washed my hands I felt sensations in my hands. With eys open the body feels solid but with eyes open not so at all. Somehow it also feels like I dont sense where the body ends. Hmmmm. what does this tell me about the body? it seems so tangible when I see "my" body but when I close my eys it is completely not solid, tangible at all. Now I am trying to understand this and some confusion comes up. Tell me what I miss or what else look deeper if I am not looking carefully enough. Have learned that now, that it is easy to miss some things and not look deeply enough...
[/quote]"
Good its getting clearer. Try sitting for 20 min with closed eyes and notice every shifting thought and sensation. Try in particular to notice how often there are fleeting images of body/room/face/etc that can go unnoticed as if it is direct experience and not just thoughts. This starts to get you more in touch with how conventinal experience is constructed moment by moment in real time. A key is to separate direct appearing/dissapearing sensations from images. This level of "resolution" is not necessary to see that no separate self exists, i.e. the goal of LU, but it deepens the seeing. Vipassana works on this level.
And here, do these exercises also to deepen:
What is Seeing?
Look at whatever is in front of you. It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
Hearing Exercise
Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.
1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Hand on desk
Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.
Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?
2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?
3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'? What do you find? Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
"Yes I can see that the feeling of choosing/I chose this -thought arising just arised spontaniously. So subtle that "I" assumed there was a chooser there. Yes - no executing self or chooser, just a feeling and thought tha arose....Yes what a mystery tha a feeling arises of making a choice and action happens without a "connector". Amazing... like a little seed that becomes a huge tree, it is a miracle...."
<3
"Yes so clarifying that i mixed the "thought of anticipation/prediction or choice" with an actual chooser. Yes you are right: "they are spontanious selfless phenomena too". This I will continue to investigate for sure even more."
Lovely. Try just sitting with a notebook in an enjoyable place and write down things you notice happening automatically without doer/chooser/controller, in thoughts and movements. Fun way to deepen this.
"No I can not find any autonomous entity that chooses what to wear or eat for lunch. It is like you wrote dependant on what is available, purpose, time etc. Good question: "If responsible then to what and for what? Life is just happening all by itself. All connected and interdependant."
Right! So: Is there or has there ever been a separate self, a doer?
"BODY EXERCISE:
When I close my eyes I can not know how tall the body is or what the weight/volume is. In actual exp the body have no form or shpe and no boundary between the body and the chair. There is this sensation of touch and sensation of kind of vibration.
Is there inside and outside: Cant find it. Just a bit of vibration that seems to be where the body is supposed to be. Somehow inside and outside does not apply when experiencing directly. I can not feel any organs, blood etc and the outside is just a word and in direct experience It is just space and where the inside stops and outside starts seems not that there is any line, border there at all...
"What does the word laber ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body? When closed eyes I can not feel any body just more like o localised sense of liveness... when I washed my hands I felt sensations in my hands. With eys open the body feels solid but with eyes open not so at all. Somehow it also feels like I dont sense where the body ends. Hmmmm. what does this tell me about the body? it seems so tangible when I see "my" body but when I close my eys it is completely not solid, tangible at all. Now I am trying to understand this and some confusion comes up. Tell me what I miss or what else look deeper if I am not looking carefully enough. Have learned that now, that it is easy to miss some things and not look deeply enough...
[/quote]"
Good its getting clearer. Try sitting for 20 min with closed eyes and notice every shifting thought and sensation. Try in particular to notice how often there are fleeting images of body/room/face/etc that can go unnoticed as if it is direct experience and not just thoughts. This starts to get you more in touch with how conventinal experience is constructed moment by moment in real time. A key is to separate direct appearing/dissapearing sensations from images. This level of "resolution" is not necessary to see that no separate self exists, i.e. the goal of LU, but it deepens the seeing. Vipassana works on this level.
And here, do these exercises also to deepen:
What is Seeing?
Look at whatever is in front of you. It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
Hearing Exercise
Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.
1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Hand on desk
Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.
Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?
2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?
3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'? What do you find? Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
Pohjantahti
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
Re: Thank You already
Hi Elad,
yes I did the the writing on notebook what I noticed happend automatically, thoughts and movement of body.
The thoughts and labeling what is seen happens and body moving and adjusting position etc. Good exercise.
No separate doer/self anywhere to be found here now. The part of "has there been ever a separate self" is not clear.It is like I can not go back to check in the past since. I can use logik to understand that there can not have ever been a separe self, but I can not have that as a direct experience. What am I missing?
20min closed eyes and noticing every shifting thought and sensation exercise (particulary noticing fleeting images):
There was a lot of images. For example when feeling a sensation of the back towards the soffa then the image of the body and soffa emerged. Also images of this room. Hearing a dog barking and an image of a dog was there, the size and a look of the (fantasy) dog even not knowing at all other than it seemed to be barking going on in the apartment somewhere in this house. Also thoughts of the sky and image of the sky was there too.
A lot of thoughts also appeared about not understanding "how the conventional experience is constructed moment by moment in real time". I can not understand this and frustration and thought pop up and want to get it. Somehow feeling the truth of it but not getting it! How does the reality get constructed? I know we just are interested in direct experience, but there comes frustration about this and the implications of this.....Why do we separete images from direct sensation. Something is not clicking here. Can the mind get this... Sorry for getting stuck in this. Just a lot of thought coming up with content like this right now in this moment.
"What is seeing? - exercise:
The seeing is like a windscreen not 2 windows. I can not find any thing that sees. Yes the seeing and seen is just one experience with no seer there. They arise simultanously. This is a bit hard for the thought to make sense of...
There is only experience - no awareness separe from experience in my direct experience. I discover here that my belief in some awareness being aware is not true when I look. Then arises thought about it. What is this? What is awareness? Is awareness and experience one and the same....And yes all those are concepts, words, thought...
"Hearing exercise":
1) In hearing there can not be found anything but what is heard. I heard the fridge and noticed that attention went to the ears, but there is no sense of the ears, brain, body, "I" hearing or doing anything. There is only "what can be heard". No there is no inherent hearere to be found. This was easy to see.
"Hand on desk" exercise:
There is in direct experience only a sensation. There is not 2 things, not a hand and not a table and not a "feeler" (except when images in mind come up of the table/hand), just sensation. This blows the mind!! It is very clear in direct experience, but thoughts of "how can this be" appear and "what does this tell me?! and "Can I trust this" "Why is it different with closed eyes than open eyes" Frustration is coming up. Withour the words and concepts and with eyes closed there is really just sensation, no hand, no table..Why dont I understand this? Is it the spiritual teaching that this is illusion, created by mind, seemingly so real, yet not... I know all this is just thought but the mind get stirred up and frustrated wanting to get it..... Tell me if I need to look closer or if I missed something important.
yes I did the the writing on notebook what I noticed happend automatically, thoughts and movement of body.
The thoughts and labeling what is seen happens and body moving and adjusting position etc. Good exercise.
No separate doer/self anywhere to be found here now. The part of "has there been ever a separate self" is not clear.It is like I can not go back to check in the past since. I can use logik to understand that there can not have ever been a separe self, but I can not have that as a direct experience. What am I missing?
20min closed eyes and noticing every shifting thought and sensation exercise (particulary noticing fleeting images):
There was a lot of images. For example when feeling a sensation of the back towards the soffa then the image of the body and soffa emerged. Also images of this room. Hearing a dog barking and an image of a dog was there, the size and a look of the (fantasy) dog even not knowing at all other than it seemed to be barking going on in the apartment somewhere in this house. Also thoughts of the sky and image of the sky was there too.
A lot of thoughts also appeared about not understanding "how the conventional experience is constructed moment by moment in real time". I can not understand this and frustration and thought pop up and want to get it. Somehow feeling the truth of it but not getting it! How does the reality get constructed? I know we just are interested in direct experience, but there comes frustration about this and the implications of this.....Why do we separete images from direct sensation. Something is not clicking here. Can the mind get this... Sorry for getting stuck in this. Just a lot of thought coming up with content like this right now in this moment.
"What is seeing? - exercise:
The seeing is like a windscreen not 2 windows. I can not find any thing that sees. Yes the seeing and seen is just one experience with no seer there. They arise simultanously. This is a bit hard for the thought to make sense of...
There is only experience - no awareness separe from experience in my direct experience. I discover here that my belief in some awareness being aware is not true when I look. Then arises thought about it. What is this? What is awareness? Is awareness and experience one and the same....And yes all those are concepts, words, thought...
"Hearing exercise":
1) In hearing there can not be found anything but what is heard. I heard the fridge and noticed that attention went to the ears, but there is no sense of the ears, brain, body, "I" hearing or doing anything. There is only "what can be heard". No there is no inherent hearere to be found. This was easy to see.
"Hand on desk" exercise:
There is in direct experience only a sensation. There is not 2 things, not a hand and not a table and not a "feeler" (except when images in mind come up of the table/hand), just sensation. This blows the mind!! It is very clear in direct experience, but thoughts of "how can this be" appear and "what does this tell me?! and "Can I trust this" "Why is it different with closed eyes than open eyes" Frustration is coming up. Withour the words and concepts and with eyes closed there is really just sensation, no hand, no table..Why dont I understand this? Is it the spiritual teaching that this is illusion, created by mind, seemingly so real, yet not... I know all this is just thought but the mind get stirred up and frustrated wanting to get it..... Tell me if I need to look closer or if I missed something important.
Re: Thank You already
"No separate doer/self anywhere to be found here now. The part of "has there been ever a separate self" is not clear.It is like I can not go back to check in the past since. I can use logik to understand that there can not have ever been a separe self, but I can not have that as a direct experience. What am I missing?"
Can past or future be other then a thought? Could there have been a real separate self in a thought?
You are right there, you got this.
Regarding construction of experience, I led you down a rabbit hole, sorry. It's outside what LU is about. It will get clearer with more meditative attending a la Vipassana or natural meditation style (you can youtube Angelo Dillulo natural meditation, if not familliar). But absolutely unnecessary for the purposes of this investigation. For your own deepening and enjoyment you can practice that kind of meditation and it will get clearer. But not through thinking about it. Just attending to moment to moment emergence and change of experience, the senses and movement of thought, as minutely as possible.
But here in this dialogue, let's focus on the main point!
Look in simple direct normal experience. Is there a separate self anywhere? Is there a controller or doer anywhere? What do you see?
And do this exercise:
Can past or future be other then a thought? Could there have been a real separate self in a thought?
You are right there, you got this.
Regarding construction of experience, I led you down a rabbit hole, sorry. It's outside what LU is about. It will get clearer with more meditative attending a la Vipassana or natural meditation style (you can youtube Angelo Dillulo natural meditation, if not familliar). But absolutely unnecessary for the purposes of this investigation. For your own deepening and enjoyment you can practice that kind of meditation and it will get clearer. But not through thinking about it. Just attending to moment to moment emergence and change of experience, the senses and movement of thought, as minutely as possible.
But here in this dialogue, let's focus on the main point!
Look in simple direct normal experience. Is there a separate self anywhere? Is there a controller or doer anywhere? What do you see?
And do this exercise:
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Thank You alreadysh
Analogy of lost keys
Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. Is this clear
Share whatever reactions come up.
Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. Is this clear
Share whatever reactions come up.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
Pohjantahti
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
Re: Thank You already
Thank You Elad,
Thank you for you patience. Feels a little like I am going in a circle here and being a bit confused.
Yes past and future are just thoughts for sure, and there can not have been a separate self in a thought. Some sadness appeared and a feeling of me being sad but that is a thought. In everyday experience sight, sound and sensations are cleary no self there, but falling into believing "I" when feelings come is more "sticky" and easy to get believing in the "me being sad" instead of just sadness appearing. It feels like I almost "get" it but some doubt thoughts comes still up and thoughts like "how can I be sure/ how can I trust my experience of seeing.And how to avoid forgetting after this guidance with you. How to remind "me" of this?
Yes the analogy with the keys is good but not really sure if it is clear for me that feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or not are different. I get that feeling and seeing is different. I think it is just that I do not trust that I truly have seen clearly enough and the doubt thoughts are believed.
I resonate with what you wrote;"attending to moment to moment emergence and change of experience, the senses and movement of thought as minutely as possible". That sentence feels like medicin of remembrance/reminder of what is true. To do that when lost, when temporarily believing in the me happens.
"Look at simple direct normal experince. Is there a separate self anywhere? Is ther a controller or doer anywhere? What do you see?"
It appears likea thought appears and things get done. Like today I vacuumcleaned the house after a thought pop up to do so. It is just a bit unclear that it is so and no doer/entity. There is some struggle with this. What else do I need to see or do or is it just trusting and to accept that it is going to take time.
I did the natural meditation, thank you for sharing that with me!
Thank you for you patience. Feels a little like I am going in a circle here and being a bit confused.
Yes past and future are just thoughts for sure, and there can not have been a separate self in a thought. Some sadness appeared and a feeling of me being sad but that is a thought. In everyday experience sight, sound and sensations are cleary no self there, but falling into believing "I" when feelings come is more "sticky" and easy to get believing in the "me being sad" instead of just sadness appearing. It feels like I almost "get" it but some doubt thoughts comes still up and thoughts like "how can I be sure/ how can I trust my experience of seeing.And how to avoid forgetting after this guidance with you. How to remind "me" of this?
Yes the analogy with the keys is good but not really sure if it is clear for me that feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or not are different. I get that feeling and seeing is different. I think it is just that I do not trust that I truly have seen clearly enough and the doubt thoughts are believed.
I resonate with what you wrote;"attending to moment to moment emergence and change of experience, the senses and movement of thought as minutely as possible". That sentence feels like medicin of remembrance/reminder of what is true. To do that when lost, when temporarily believing in the me happens.
"Look at simple direct normal experince. Is there a separate self anywhere? Is ther a controller or doer anywhere? What do you see?"
It appears likea thought appears and things get done. Like today I vacuumcleaned the house after a thought pop up to do so. It is just a bit unclear that it is so and no doer/entity. There is some struggle with this. What else do I need to see or do or is it just trusting and to accept that it is going to take time.
I did the natural meditation, thank you for sharing that with me!
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