Approaching Awakening

[Kaki]

It does make sense, thank you. It definitely is something I can do throughout the day... as long as I remember. 🤪 I need to make myself little reminders.

In your opinion, do most deep inquiry explorations happened in meditation, rather than going about your daily tasks?

[Bluejay]

In your opinion, do most deep inquiry explorations happened in meditation, rather than going about your daily tasks?

Ideally you want to bring the inquiry into daily life, so the inquiry starts in meditation and then moves to everyday life.

Both are useful.

Does that answer? :)

It does make sense, thank you. It definitely is something I can do throughout the day... as long as I remember. 🤪 I need to make myself little reminders.

If you forget, you can set an alarm clock/countdown timer for every hour or so and see what happens.

[Kaki]

When you notice a feeling like you're doing something, whether that be deciding, thinking, making plans, stop for a moment and notice how you know that *you* are doing something.

Separate the senses and observe how the illusion forms. The simplest vipassana is enough here, which would be see-hear-feel, or just image-talk-feel.

When you say ’notice a feeling like ‘you' are doing something’, does that mean only when I’m aware of saying or thinking that ‘I’ am doing this? Much of the time I just seem to float around doing whatever I do because it is there to be done or thinking what I think because it seems to pop into my head. Often I don't think consciously that ‘I’ am doing this.

Or do you mean anytime I become aware of whatever I'm doing or thinking, regardless of whether not the thought of ‘I’ is present, then stop and note what it is, either see/hear/feel, and notice if there is a sense of I in the action? When I do this, I'm aware that what I'm doing is the result of some kind of sense stimulation. I see something that needs to be done and I do it. I hear or feel something and it stimulates a thought or action.

When I go a deeper, I can become aware of whether or not there is the thought of ‘I’ who is doing the action. I can see the ‘thought of self' that is there. Which leads to the next questions.

Does the sense of self have thoughts?

I would say yes. It is a thought generating another thought.

When you look at a thought appearing, do they come out of a self?

I haven't been able to find a ‘stuff’ that everything comes from but I'm pretty clear about thoughts generating other thoughts. If the sense of self is just thoughts, then it does seem that thoughts come out of a self, which is just other thoughts.

I don't know if I'm getting too conceptual here but these are the thoughts I've been having. 😊

Can you actually find a stuff that everything comes from?

[Bluejay]

When you say ’notice a feeling like ‘you' are doing something’, does that mean only when I’m aware of saying or thinking that ‘I’ am doing this? Much of the time I just seem to float around doing whatever I do because it is there to be done or thinking what I think because it seems to pop into my head. Often I don't think consciously that ‘I’ am doing this.

If there's no contraction or problem, then it's fine.

But if you're floating around in stress because you need to do this or that, then it's worth looking into.

If you don't remember to check in the moment, you can use an alarm every hour to stop and check what's going on and has been going on.

When I go a deeper, I can become aware of whether or not there is the thought of ‘I’ who is doing the action. I can see the ‘thought of self' that is there. Which leads to the next questions.

I would say yes. It is a thought generating another thought.

Okay great, we found something.

Look at how thoughts come and go. There is only one thought at a time. Look for how a thought can generate another thought.

Look for the connection between the two, where is it?

Don't go into a thought about a connection, that's another thought. Look in direct experience.

I haven't been able to find a ‘stuff’ that everything comes from but I'm pretty clear about thoughts generating other thoughts. If the sense of self is just thoughts, then it does seem that thoughts come out of a self, which is just other thoughts.

I don't know if I'm getting too conceptual here but these are the thoughts I've been having. 😊

This is good. This is how the inquiry moves forward. You say what you believe is true, we explore, you see, you say more, and we continue.

You may be inferring something that is not there.

Thoughts label sensations, sounds and images as 'that's me', but this doesn't mean that the sense of self is all thoughts, that in itself is another thought.

If you believe that thoughts come out of a self, then find it and show it to me. Where is this thought generator?

Can you actually find a stuff that everything comes from?

You will have to look and see :)

[Kaki]

Look at how thoughts come and go. There is only one thought at a time. Look for how a thought can generate another thought.

Looking at my thoughts is difficult because there are so many. I pick one and try to look into what it's made of but, before I know it, another thought has arrived. I can't find a boundary between the two where one stops and another starts. The thoughts are not solid. They seem more like nebulous stuff just appearing then disappearing.

Look for the connection between the two, where is it?

Some thoughts trigger a sensation in the body which creates an emotion. Other times it seems there is a word or image in a thought that triggers another thought. Sometimes there's a thought conversation going on.

FYi, I'm leaving today to drive to Angelo's retreat which starts on Sunday. I will post each morning as I travel but, once I'm there, I don't think I will be able to post. The retreat is for a week.

[Bluejay]

Looking at my thoughts is difficult because there are so many. I pick one and try to look into what it's made of but, before I know it, another thought has arrived. I can't find a boundary between the two where one stops and another starts. The thoughts are not solid. They seem more like nebulous stuff just appearing then disappearing.

So is a thought generating another thought? Can you find evidence for it?

Some thoughts trigger a sensation in the body which creates an emotion. Other times it seems there is a word or image in a thought that triggers another thought. Sometimes there's a thought conversation going on.

FYi, I'm leaving today to drive to Angelo's retreat which starts on Sunday.

A thought can of course reflect another thought, just like a TV screen can contain a movie with another TV screen, but does that mean there are two TV screens physically present?

Look for a connection between one thought to the next, is there one? Or just a thought referencing another thought?

I will post each morning as I travel but, once I'm there, I don't think I will be able to post. The retreat is for a week.

No problem. Don't post anything. Just enjoy the retreat :)

[Bluejay]

Also you said that thoughts come out of a self, and you said that thoughts come out of something nebulous.

So is the self that nebulousness?

[Kaki]

Thoughts label sensations, sounds and images as 'that's me', but this doesn't mean that the sense of self is all thoughts, that in itself is another thought.

If you believe that thoughts come out of a self, then find it and show it to me. Where is this thought generator?

I thought that the sense of self was a mental construct made up over time over from thoughts that we believed. So I did think the ‘self’ was all thought based. It also seemed to me that thoughts ‘generated’ other thoughts because there often seems to be a thread running between them. You pointed out that thoughts were ‘reflective’ and that thoughts can reference other thoughts. This makes sense and I can see that it doesn't necessarily mean that one thought ‘generated’ the next thought.

I thought I was being logical when, understanding the self to be just thoughts and thinking that thoughts generated other thoughts, I said that the self generates thoughts. I do understand that's not correct. You helped clarify this by saying that the sense of self is not all thoughts. This makes sense when so many thoughts can trigger physical sensations.

Vipassana exercise:
This also helped me see the reflective nature of thoughts. When I note something happening and then reflect on it, I don't actually know that I'm doing this other than the fact that the word 'I' is always in the reflection, as if I just assume the 'I' doing it.

[Bluejay]

This makes sense and I can see that it doesn't necessarily mean that one thought ‘generated’ the next thought.

Yes, and it can be somewhat tricky because if you focus on a topic, such as santa claus, maybe you get a few thoughts about santa, reindeer, but then randomness takes over, so even the idea that thoughts generate the next thought is known in hindsight by another thought. Does that make sense? :)

I thought I was being logical when, understanding the self to be just thoughts and thinking that thoughts generated other thoughts, I said that the self generates thoughts. I do understand that's not correct. You helped clarify this by saying that the sense of self is not all thoughts. This makes sense when so many thoughts can trigger physical sensations.

Absolutely, and sometimes a few things need to be seen for other layers to be revealed.

This also helped me see the reflective nature of thoughts. When I note something happening and then reflect on it, I don't actually know that I'm doing this other than the fact that the word 'I' is always in the reflection, as if I just assume the 'I' doing it.

This becomes more and more obvious when, for example, you note 'sensation' and you feel. You notice there is just feeling there. No feeler, no I feeling. There may be a thought saying 'I'm feeling' but then there's just thought. No thinker.

I'll leave you with this pointer and then you can enjoy your retreat:

Seeing Exercise

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'doing' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' and so on.

In this exercise, we'll focus on seeing.

So, close your eyes.

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things going on, but the specifics aren't important.

I'm going to keep things simple and use the term 'blackness' for whatever you can see while your eyes are closed.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

What do you find?

Can an inherent see-er be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

[Kaki]

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things going on, but the specifics aren't important.
I'm going to keep things simple and use the term 'blackness' for whatever you can see while your eyes are closed.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Something is seen, but ‘blackness’ is a label that my mind has put on it.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No

3

) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

No

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

There is just blackness to be found

Can an inherent see-er be found?

There is no see-er to be found

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

No, however there is a sort of something there, awareness maybe, that is the same awareness when I am looking at my thoughts. When you said to look for where everything comes from, is this what you were talking about? Is this where I should rest my attention?

[Bluejay]

No, however there is a sort of something there, awareness maybe, that is the same awareness when I am looking at my thoughts. When you said to look for where everything comes from, is this what you were talking about? Is this where I should rest my attention?

Go into vipassana noting when you find something there so you can see what this something is made of (sensations, images, sounds/talk).

Is this something aware of stuff or is it simply something in a sequence?

For example, when you are looking at a thought, the sequence might go like this:

thought - sensation (labeled awareness) - thought - next thought - sensation - sensation - etc

It happens fast.

Also, isn't anything noticed just another object and therefore cannot be awareness or a seer or a something?

[Kaki]

Hi. I'm back from retreat. I'm glad I went and it was fun to see Angelo in person but it was a heavy emotional experience. I also found it hard to get out of my head and stop seeking and comparing myself to others. It was a three day drive back home with a stop to visit my brother, and yesterday I felt tired, lonely, and frustrated that I'm not doing this right. I was aware of the thoughts associated with these feelings but mostly I was tired and didn't want to do any more work. This morning I'm more rested and sat with the heavy feelings for quite a while. I let them well up, cried a bit, and eventually they subsided. You once asked if I was sitting with feelings as fully as I can. I'm not sure. How do you know where the end is?

I'm looking forward to getting back on track with you. Our direct experience exercises all make sense to me but the insights don't feel like they're sinking in. I think I'm not doing enough, not remembering or practicing being aware of these insights enough throughout the day.

Regarding our last exchange about awareness, I'm still working on this one. It's tricky. I understand when you say that if you can become aware of awareness, it may just be another object, a thought or sensation. I think that might be the case. I'm looking so hard for the source of everything, but if I am the source of everything, or a piece of it, how could I possibly see it. Kind of like an eyeball looking for the eyeball.

[Bluejay]

Hello!

This morning I'm more rested and sat with the heavy feelings for quite a while. I let them well up, cried a bit, and eventually they subsided. You once asked if I was sitting with feelings as fully as I can. I'm not sure. How do you know where the end is?

This question "How do you know where the end is?" is also a distraction from feeling. Do you notice this?

Feelings will never stop, so it's not really of reaching someplace, but of a new way of learning to be with whatever comes. Or really, a lack of resistance to it. At first, emotional material can surface. Usually memories, fears, and so on. When it is met without resistance, it can be integrated, in lack of a better word.

This trying to distract is the belief that we can always feel good, or that we can influence the present moment by reaction and avoidance.

Usually the heavier the emotional material, the more treasure there is in fully feeling it.

Our direct experience exercises all make sense to me but the insights don't feel like they're sinking in. I think I'm not doing enough, not remembering or practicing being aware of these insights enough throughout the day.

What do you expect will happen when they sink in?

What is this thought referring to when it says 'I'm not doing enough'?

Look behind these thoughts of not enough, not remembering, what is there? Is there anything of substance?

Regarding our last exchange about awareness, I'm still working on this one. It's tricky. I understand when you say that if you can become aware of awareness, it may just be another object, a thought or sensation. I think that might be the case. I'm looking so hard for the source of everything, but if I am the source of everything, or a piece of it, how could I possibly see it. Kind of like an eyeball looking for the eyeball.

We can switch focus directly to the one that is doing all this hard work.

Is there something that is not happening automatically?

Can you stop thoughts, seeing, hearing, tasting?

Can you control how much effort is being put in, or the results of that effort?

What is this hard work about?

[Kaki]

This question "How do you know where the end is?" is also a distraction from feeling. Do you notice this?

I didn't but, thinking about it now, I can see how it could be and how I could potentially use it as such. I don't even know why I wrote that. This writing can be challenging because I want to be as clear and succinct as possible which can require several rewrites. And, in my defense, the retreat, the long drive, and the visit with my family exhausted me.

Anyway, I think I was pondering that question in relation to the term ‘fully’, but I feel like I understand that. When I can stay with my feelings till the end, there does come a point where the energy lessens and the feeling naturally subsides. When this happens, I seem to know when I'm done. I would say this is feeling them fully.

Is there something that is not happening automatically?

Can you stop thoughts, seeing, hearing, tasting?

Can you control how much effort is being put in, or the results of that effort?

What is this hard work about?

I'm also aware that many times I do not stay with my feelings fully. For whatever reason, I may get lost in thought or distracted. Depending on the situation, I may be able to bring my attention back to my feelings a few times but sometimes I just can't stay there, so I let it go.

This is where I think the hard work is for me...changing long-standing habits and patterns while also trying to remember and integrate the new ideas seen through direct experience. In meditation we are taught to keep bringing our attention back to the breath, or feelings, or whatever. Not to resist the thoughts but to redirect our attention when we become aware of them. Doesn't this sound like effort of a sort, especially when you do it over and over? I want to be able to feel my feelings fully. I accept that sometimes I will be able to and sometimes I won't, but if I don't consciously make a choice to do it, it may never get done. On the other hand, it may get done in whatever time it's supposed to get done. 😊 As I read this over, the phrase ‘consciously make a choice’ stands out that it’'s not necessarily true.

Regarding ‘control’ and things happening automatically, are you referring to the urge or intuition that comes prior to taking these actions? I can see this. I often think of the glass and hand exercises we did and I think about these urges as I walk through a store or while doing things at home.

What do you expect will happen when they sink in?

I'm not sure, but I think there will be an ‘Aha’ moment, or maybe several moments over time, when I'm absolutely sure that things are just happening as they do in the world everywhere and I'm a part of that but not in control of any of it. And it's okay. And it's awesome.

What is this thought referring to when it says 'I'm not doing enough'?

This thought is playing the old tapes that I have to get all A's in school, that I have to be concerned about what others think of me, that I have to be perfect and not fail, etc.

Look behind these thoughts of not enough, not remembering, what is there? Is there anything of substance?

I'm not sure what you mean to ‘look behind them’ and ‘Is there anything of substance?’. Do you mean to dig deep and see where they came from (that's easy), or do you mean to see that they are just thoughts…thoughts that have been repeated throughout my lifetime. In the present moment, they are just thoughts whose content may or may not be true.

[Bluejay]

This writing can be challenging because I want to be as clear and succinct as possible which can require several rewrites. And, in my defense, the retreat, the long drive, and the visit with my family exhausted me.

Even if we don't communicate perfectly, and I ask questions that you know, it's still beneficial to look again, so nothing is really a waste.

Anyway, I think I was pondering that question in relation to the term ‘fully’, but I feel like I understand that. When I can stay with my feelings till the end, there does come a point where the energy lessens and the feeling naturally subsides. When this happens, I seem to know when I'm done. I would say this is feeling them fully.

Yes, usually you know by the feeling shifting or transmuting.

For whatever reason, I may get lost in thought or distracted. Depending on the situation, I may be able to bring my attention back to my feelings a few times but sometimes I just can't stay there, so I let it go.

Completely fine!

This is where I think the hard work is for me...changing long-standing habits and patterns while also trying to remember and integrate the new ideas seen through direct experience. In meditation we are taught to keep bringing our attention back to the breath, or feelings, or whatever. Not to resist the thoughts but to redirect our attention when we become aware of them. Doesn't this sound like effort of a sort, especially when you do it over and over? I want to be able to feel my feelings fully. I accept that sometimes I will be able to and sometimes I won't, but if I don't consciously make a choice to do it, it may never get done. On the other hand, it may get done in whatever time it's supposed to get done. 😊 As I read this over, the phrase ‘consciously make a choice’ stands out that it’'s not necessarily true.

Yes, are you doing any of this?

There is a claiming of you needing to do something, but look closer. Do you control thoughts or attention, or the information that comes in, or what is applied?

Which part of this process are you in control of?

Look in direct experience.

Regarding ‘control’ and things happening automatically, are you referring to the urge or intuition that comes prior to taking these actions? I can see this. I often think of the glass and hand exercises we did and I think about these urges as I walk through a store or while doing things at home.

All of it. Is there something that is not happening automatically?

I'm not sure, but I think there will be an ‘Aha’ moment, or maybe several moments over time, when I'm absolutely sure that things are just happening as they do in the world everywhere and I'm a part of that but not in control of any of it. And it's okay. And it's awesome.

What does it mean when it's okay and awesome?

Are there some feelings that are absent that are here now? Or some feelings that are there that are not here?

Almost always awakening becomes this thing that when we 'see' then we will feel great and life is amazing. That in itself becomes the distraction.

This thought is playing the old tapes that I have to get all A's in school, that I have to be concerned about what others think of me, that I have to be perfect and not fail, etc.

Send compassion for that part of you that is trying so hard to do all of this.

Then look, where is the control in this?

I'm not sure what you mean to ‘look behind them’ and ‘Is there anything of substance?’. Do you mean to dig deep and see where they came from (that's easy), or do you mean to see that they are just thoughts…thoughts that have been repeated throughout my lifetime. In the present moment, they are just thoughts whose content may or may not be true.

In direct experience, when there is a thought of not enough, what is behind/above/below it that supports it?

There is a fear of not being enough, but what's beyond the fear?

In direct experience, go through the fear, what is there to be afraid of?