Let's do this

[ashton]

Is this another way of saying that the SENSE of self occurs and is SEEN to be happening but no identification accompanies it?
Is this something that you experience?

At the moment, there is still identification with it in the meta-awareness state. But when I get into the no meta-awareness state, I can tell there is no sense of self at all. So I KNOW that the sense of self comes with the added layer of meta-awareness naturally, but for some reason I still identify with it (only in the meta-awareness state ofcourse).

At the same time, I can tell there is no Do-er in the no meta-awareness state, but again, that too hasn't yet translated in the meta-awareness state.

Basically, the glue is still holding it all together. I partly think its just a matter of needing to experience the no-meta awareness state more, to realllly witness it. And also the transitionary "state" more as well, to see how it all comes into being

Ash

[vinceschubert]

'evening Ash,

At the moment, there is still identification with it in the meta-awareness state.

Don't tell me that it exists, describe your experience as it happens.
Your description needs to include what is experienced as you identify.

that too hasn't yet translated in the meta-awareness state.

Can you describe the experience of being in the meta-aware state and again when not in it?

vince

[vinceschubert]

Hey Ash, where did you go?


vince

[ashton]

Hi vince, im back. Would prob have to start over at just the most basic level with you or someone else.

Id really love to do the conversation without a spiritual scope this time, as if the guider is just talking to a construction worker off the street. That would be more relatable at this time with me

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ash, Let's come at this from a more fundamental level.
i want you to start with this; All thoughts are a diversion from what is actual.
You can play with All thoughts are bullshit for a start.
There will be the occasional useful one but they will make themselves known. Just treat every thought as a way of escaping 'reality'.
What does this leave? The body. Sensations.
So start with some vipassana meditation. That is, get comfortable and close your eyes and start at the top of your head and scan your body for sensations.
When you encounter a sensation, then rest in it. Stay with it and watch it change. Don't use labels to describe it. Just swim in it at a level beneath what words can describe.
When it dissipates, continue scanning until the next sensation is encountered.
Do this from the top of your head down to the soles of your feet.
Now, here's the big one. The moment that you realize that you were lost in thought, smile inwardly and start again from the top of your head.
Keep going until you can reach your feet without getting lost in thought.
Report what happens.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Report what happens.

1. When I was able to stay with a sensation, no matter where it originated, it made me experience pleasant sensations- the sane type of physical pleasantness as in a mild state of arousal.

It's kind of hard to differentiate whether what I also felt was an emotion, but I would say it wasn't, it was like the endorphin or adrenaline you get coarsing through your veins. (Very mild, but pleasant).

2. I probably sat and did this for another 20 minutes and noticed this:
● If "I" or "something", whatever "it" is that I'm referring to was able to take the back seat, my mind- or whatever you want to call it vince, would naturally go down the rabbit hole of jumping/FLOWING miraculously and seemlessly from one pleasant sensation to the next whenever either
A) a new, more pleasant sensation arose somewhere else
B) the current one that it was focused on came to an end

However, when whatever it is decided to be in the drivers seat, it would use its own "intentions" and jump from sensation to sensation in a more animalistic way of trying to "find" and "searc" for something better. Whereas the former, it would just stumble onto a new one more naturally. There was definitely more intent when there was some sort of very underlying thought or drive or motivator in the drivers seat. It took away from the experience, and actually, there were GAPS between those pleasant sensations. I'd be experiencing pleasant sensations, and for some reason, it would want to jump to something else, even when there was nothing there for it to jump to, and thus, a gap, before a new sensation arose.

When that didn't happen, there were no gaps.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ash, Ok, let's fine tune this...

it made me experience pleasant sensations

You might have to dig a bit to get this..
"pleasant" is a concept.
How do you know this? (rhetorical question) You know it because it is about a response to the sensations.
If we were just talking at a social level, then it would be adequate to communicate that response.
Here, though, when you describe the sensation itself (not the response to it) I want to here about location, tone, if it is changing, etc.
When you describe the response to it, I want to hear about the stories that arise.

an emotion,

A feeling and an emotion can be viewed as the same thing but a different scale. Anyway, for the purposes of this investigation we'll treat them as the same. They are sensation plus story. Neither are static.

If "I" or "something", whatever "it" is that I'm referring to was able to take the back seat, my mind- or whatever you want to call it vince, would naturally go down the rabbit hole of jumping/FLOWING miraculously and seemlessly from one pleasant sensation to the next whenever either
A) a new, more pleasant sensation arose somewhere else
B) the current one that it was focused on came to an end

What is really good about this is that your noticing was present. You were able to observe without getting lost in it. (mostly)

However, when whatever it is decided to be in the drivers seat, it would use its own "intentions" and jump from sensation to sensation in a more animalistic way of trying to "find" and "searc" for something better.

Again, good noticing.
Remember, it's not the outcome that we are interested in. It is the process.
That is the sequence of events and the responses to them.

way of trying to "find" and "search" for something better.

..and here you stumbled onto the nature of thoughts. They are never satisfied. They need constant activity.

there were GAPS between those pleasant sensations. I'd be experiencing pleasant sensations, and for some reason, it would want to jump to something else, even when there was nothing there for it to jump to, and thus, a gap, before a new sensation arose.

Ah, now this could be really useful. Next time you find a gap present, try and stay in it.

Do the whole exercise again, and this time notice any difference (from last time) in the responses that arise.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hi Vince, we can keep doing this.

It's funny actually, maybe a couple months ago I was going through a phase where I distinctly noticed that thoughts were coming in just like anything else.

I haven't desired or tried doing any of this in years now, and it spontaneously just happened on its own. I didn't do anything different except keep some awareness on it, but at the time I was focused on other pursuits, so I didn't really give it the awareness it kind of requires.

But when i tune myself into it now there is a marked difference. I remember in the past it was like I was trying to CREATE these sensations and stuff. Now it is understood experientially.

There's no thought behind it. If I keep my awareness up (which again only happened for a little bit in that phase, and I haven't done intentionally for months now, but can start again), then yes, I can tell these random happenings if you will.

I can start to tell where a sound is heard, and then sort of a feeling it evokes in me having recognized it. Sometimes I just notice something. Other times I notice first a looking, and then a noticing. Other times I notice a witnessing and then am impression if you will that follows.

In the past, I'd try and conceptualize everything and it would change my thinking dramatically. Now it is different, and entirely more accurate. It doesn't change the fact that I have thoughts. At the end of the day it's like I'm a thought generating and sense feeling machine.

But there also definitely isn't this 24/7 awareness where I'm witnessing all of this. It's only when I try and keep my awareness up. But now when I do keep my awareness up, it is at least now accurately discerning things. Honestly, I think it would suck to always be in this heightened state where you try to note all of these different sensations if you will. To me, life has so much more meaning than all of that. I digress, I can do it if it requires, which I'm certain it does. But I think ultimately, it'll just naturally shift to staying how I currently experience life, without all that heightened awareness solely refined at only discerning each and every sensation. It takes me out of the moment. It keeps me in a state of hypervigilance, and I don't enjoy just viewing endlessly. It's so numbing and dulling to my normal life experience.

Nice to see you reach back out Vince. How have you been? Pleasure to be with you again. I've aged a little bit. Probably a little more mature. You doing good?

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ash,

Nice to see you reach back out Vince.

Great, but it just happened.

How have you been?

Life is really good.

I've aged a little bit. Probably a little more mature.

Maybe you're ready for this now..

It's funny actually, maybe a couple months ago I was going through a phase where I distinctly noticed that thoughts were coming in just like anything else.

I haven't desired or tried doing any of this in years now, and it spontaneously just happened on its own. I didn't do anything different except keep some awareness on it, but at the time I was focused on other pursuits, so I didn't really give it the awareness it kind of requires.

But when i tune myself into it now there is a marked difference. I remember in the past it was like I was trying to CREATE these sensations and stuff. Now it is understood experientially.

There's no thought behind it. If I keep my awareness up (which again only happened for a little bit in that phase, and I haven't done intentionally for months now, but can start again), then yes, I can tell these random happenings if you will.

I can start to tell where a sound is heard, and then sort of a feeling it evokes in me having recognized it. Sometimes I just notice something. Other times I notice first a looking, and then a noticing. Other times I notice a witnessing and then am impression if you will that follows.

In the past, I'd try and conceptualize everything and it would change my thinking dramatically. Now it is different, and entirely more accurate. It doesn't change the fact that I have thoughts. At the end of the day it's like I'm a thought generating and sense feeling machine.

But there also definitely isn't this 24/7 awareness where I'm witnessing all of this. It's only when I try and keep my awareness up. But now when I do keep my awareness up, it is at least now accurately discerning things. Honestly, I think it would suck to always be in this heightened state where you try to note all of these different sensations if you will. To me, life has so much more meaning than all of that. I digress, I can do it if it requires, which I'm certain it does. But I think ultimately, it'll just naturally shift to staying how I currently experience life, without all that heightened awareness solely refined at only discerning each and every sensation. It takes me out of the moment. It keeps me in a state of hypervigilance, and I don't enjoy just viewing endlessly. It's so numbing and dulling to my normal life experience.

It sounds like you’re right on the edge.

That moment you describe—when thoughts are just there, as much as sounds or sensations—that is the line dissolving. That’s not a phase. That’s the crack. And it doesn’t matter if it was only there briefly.

Now here’s the key: you noticed the machinery without identifying with it. That’s what changed. That's big.

In the past you tried to reach some elevated state. You tried to do awareness. That’s gone now. It’s not being done. It just shows up—if it’s noticed.

But here’s the trap: you’re still flirting with the idea that “keeping awareness up” is something you have to do. You think this is a skill or practice you could pick up again. You think there’s a choice.

Who is doing that?

Slow it down. Right now.

Look.

A sound happens. A sensation arises. A thought appears. Before “you” get there. Before “awareness” is “kept up.”

Where’s the doer?

Where is the one keeping awareness up?

Not as a thought about it. Look now, right now—where is the one aware of the thought?

Don’t tell me. Stay in it. Look.

–––

You said:
“At the end of the day it’s like I’m a thought generating and sense feeling machine.”

YES.

But don’t just describe it. Feel it. There’s no one inside the machine. The machine hums. It reacts. It registers. But no one is in charge. There’s no observer riding it.

And yet, life keeps happening. Perfectly.

–––

Now the big one:

You said,
“I think ultimately, it'll just naturally shift to staying how I currently experience life…”

Stop. Catch that?

That’s the last seeker move—waiting for a natural shift.

That’s you postponing the seeing that’s already right here.

There’s nothing to shift. There’s nothing wrong with how life is being experienced now. Except the idea that it should be anything different.

This is it.
Not poetic. Not blissful. Not profound. Just utterly ungraspable. Already whole.

So tell me:

👉 Is there a “you” keeping awareness up?
👉 Is there a controller of experience anywhere at all?
👉 What’s left when that illusion is dropped?

Look. Don’t answer from thought. Report directly from the scene.

vince

[ashton]

In the past you tried to reach some elevated state. You tried to do awareness.
But here’s the trap: you’re still flirting with the idea that “keeping awareness up” is something you have to do. You think this is a skill or practice you could pick up again. You think there’s a choice.

Not in that kind of way. It's different now. Now I can see it as a thought or an idea, and then see the natural inclination manifest out of it. It's like a river. It's like a predetermined path. I still have thoughts that I'm directing my life and that I'm choosing my direction. It's just that now, I can see the presentation of 2 choices as it is. A thought of 2 choices. And then I can see the secondary and tertiary thoughts that follow and determine which route I take. It isn't with loads of clarity or anything. Again, I can't even say it's a background thing going on. It's just that if my awareness is there and I'm paying a lot of attention, I can see it. Just like me writing all of this down. It's like, me writing this sentence, I can tell the motivator thought, and then the thought that agrees to do it. And then it just happens and my thumbs get to typing. I also want to say that it's not like my awareness is so well pinpointed where I recognize this on a word by word or letter by letter basis. Almost 95% of all of this stuff is just happening sort of on its own. There actually isn't many of these recognizing or decision making thoughts. Not even loads of awareness for each gesture I make to impress this on my phone. But the times they are there, which is few and far between, I can see it for what it is.

To say I'm not the one creating it seems a little weird. I think it's more apt to say that my body is like the middle man. Things come up from nowhere. I recognize it. I interpret it and then do it. It's more like I'm an intermediary if you will. It's not stemming from the doer per se. But the doer is acting out from this nothingness that binds the doer and the things that come from out of nowhere. Idk that's just my only way of describing it.

At the end of the day, I'm definitely doing stuff. I'm writing this. I understand that I'm not the one compelling myself to do it. The compelling happens on its own. I think you understand what I'm saying.

Where is the one keeping awareness up?

It's things like this. You say this question and then it may or may not evoke a spontaneous arousal of awareness. It did at first. But now I'm writing again and it faded and I'm just writing. That's what I'm trying to say. It's hard to say things too like oh, that's not my thought. No, they definitely are. In the sense that they are passing through me. They all pass through this intermediary that is me that is undergoing all of them.

–––

You said:
“At the end of the day it’s like I’m a thought generating and sense feeling machine.”

YES.

But don’t just describe it. Feel it. There’s no one inside the machine. The machine hums. It reacts. It registers. But no one is in charge. There’s no observer riding it.

There's times where I'm observing and there's other times where there's just happening, like I'm so caught up in the middle of something. Versus times where there's this meta state. But it just comes up randomly.

And yet, life keeps happening. Perfectly.

Yeah

–––

Now the big one:

You said,
“I think ultimately, it'll just naturally shift to staying how I currently experience life…”

Stop. Catch that?

That’s the last seeker move—waiting for a natural shift.

That’s you postponing the seeing that’s already right here.

There’s nothing to shift. There’s nothing wrong with how life is being experienced now. Except the idea that it should be anything different.

This is it.
Not poetic. Not blissful. Not profound. Just utterly ungraspable. Already whole.

Well then there's nothing to it really. Idfk. Idk it's just normal. Again, most of my life I'm not operating under such magnified scrutiny of noticing all the particulars. But when awareness is present or whatever along with desire to pay attention, I can see thoughts as they are

So tell me:

👉 Is there a “you” keeping awareness up?

👉 Is there a controller of experience anywhere at all?
👉 What’s left when that illusion is dropped?

Look. Don’t answer from thought. Report directly from the scene.

vince

1. There's no "me" keeping awareness up. Rather, reality keeping it up or not. It's just either there or it isn't. It can definitely feel like it's something controllable, but in the sense that I was directed into controlling it. Like right now, I'm gonna keep my awareness up. I typed that and kinda laughed lol. Bc nothing changed hahaha. I was waiting for it to and it didn't. But I digress. So yeah, it shows that thoughts or desires can come up but it doesn't guarantee an experience. That was actually hilarious lol. Kinda glad that happened.

2. Not a controller. As you just saw in that above paragraph. There can be thoughts that inspire a desire to control. And that's actual. But there's nothing that guarantees that the experience im looking for will be the experience that happens

3. When the illusion is dropped, what's left? Idk just baseless experience. Idk nothing really changes? Fuck I'm still just doing whatever.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ash,

You think there’s a choice.
Not in that kind of way. It's different now. Now I can see it as a thought or an idea, and then see the natural inclination manifest out of it. It's like a river. It's like a predetermined path. I still have thoughts that I'm directing my life and that I'm choosing my direction. It's just that now, I can see the presentation of 2 choices as it is. A thought of 2 choices. And then I can see the secondary and tertiary thoughts that follow and determine which route I take. It isn't with loads of clarity or anything. Again, I can't even say it's a background thing going on. It's just that if my awareness is there and I'm paying a lot of attention,

Stop right there.

You just exposed it beautifully—and then tried to smuggle the self back in through the back door with “if my awareness is there and I'm paying a lot of attention...”

Whose awareness?
Who is paying attention?

You just told me:

> “It’s like a river. It’s like a predetermined path.”
> “I can see the presentation of 2 choices as it is. A thought of 2 choices.”
> “Then I can see the secondary and tertiary thoughts that follow and determine which route I take.”

Perfect. That’s not choice. That’s observation of the mechanism. The script unfolds. The body reacts. Thoughts echo. And no one is doing it.

But then—“if I’m paying a lot of attention…”
That’s the ghost trying to stay alive.
That’s the residue of the one who still thinks they can show up and help.

Let’s burn it now.

What causes the awareness to be “there”?
Did “you” place it there?
Was it a choice? A discipline?
Or did attention just move, like wind blowing through leaves?

Is there anything that is NOT already just happening?

Look right now.
Don’t tell me ideas—check the mechanism itself:

What’s choosing where your attention goes?
Can you stop a thought from arising before it comes?
Can you select the next movement, sensation, urge?

Don’t answer with theory. Look.
Right here. Right now.
Is there anyone home?

At the end of the day, I'm definitely doing stuff. I'm writing this. I understand that I'm not the one compelling myself to do it. The compelling happens on its own.

Exactly.

The writing happens. The urge to respond shows up. Fingers move.

But where’s the “you” doing it?
Not the thought “I’m doing this,”—the actual doer.

Find it. Right now.
Is there anything but the sensation of typing, the flicker of thought, the movement?

What part of this is being authored by a self?

Look again.
You’re not not doing it—
It’s that doing is just happening
without a doer.

Right?

It's hard to say things too like oh, that's not my thought. No, they definitely are. In the sense that they are passing through me. They all pass through this intermediary that is me that is undergoing all of them.

There it is.
That last foothold. That final hiding spot: “They pass through me.”

What is “me” right there?
Not the idea—point to it in experience.
Where is the intermediary?

A thought arises.
You notice it.
Then another thought says: “That happened to me.”
But that’s just another thought.

Strip it back—what is actually here?
Thought. Sensation. Sound.
No middle. No conduit. Just this.

So try again:
Can you find the one they pass through?
Right now—don’t think—look.

There's times where I'm observing and there's other times where there's just happening, like I'm so caught up in the middle of something. Versus times where there's this meta state. But it just comes up randomly.

Good. That’s honest.

Now look closely—
Who enters or exits the meta state?
Who’s “caught up”?
Who’s “observing”?

Or is it all just happening?
Meta state arises. Immersion arises. Neither is chosen. Neither is sustained.
They just show up.

So what’s doing it?
Where’s the switch?
Where’s the one who toggles between “observing” and “caught up”?

Look now.
Not the thought about it—the mechanism itself.
Can you find the one flipping the switch?

most of my life I'm not operating under such magnified scrutiny of noticing all the particulars

We only need to do this until we have readjusted your perspective. Then that will become 'normal'.

When the illusion is dropped, what's left? Idk just baseless experience. Idk nothing really changes? Fuck I'm still just doing whatever.

Beautiful. Exactly. ..and yes, experience just happening.

vince

[ashton]

Its like theres infinite boxes

And this is the box that defines experience for my being.

And in this box, there are subsets of other micro boxes. Theres the box of smell and of touch and of taste and of thought and of emotion and of hearing and of seeing. And sometimes these boxes fire at the same time. Sometimes they dont. Sometimes it seems like none of the boxes are firing. But yet that defines the main box. But these boxes dont belong to anyone.

The semantics of which box is in the spotlight or isnt, dont matter. Or what content is being illustrated in said box also doesnt matter. These boxes are what define reality.

Awareness is also a box. And when that box is active, content from other boxes may or may not become noticed. But that noticing box also is just a box. It also doesnt matter.

Presentation of choices is another box. As is decision making. Its all just a box. It happens on its own. One box can lead to the next.

THE BOXES ARE WHAT PRESENT THEMSELVES. IT IS NEVER AN "ACT OF FINDING". IT IS ALWAYS AN ACT ON THE BOX'S PART OF IMPRESSING SAID BOX ON REALITY.

That which is coming from a box, is a box. That which one may think is coming from a "self" or "themselves", is also a box.

These individual boxes are what control and define reality.

Each box has the 3 characteristics of being fleeting, unsatisfactory, and not containing a self. It is just a box.

Not all 3 characteristics are noticed with each box either. It just depends. Sometimes none of them are noticed. Sometimes the transitions between box to box are noticed. Othertimes not.

Nothing is controlling these boxes. Nobody is DOING a box. The boxes just are a fact of reality. The box does itself.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ash,

Its like theres infinite boxes

And this is the box that defines experience for my being.

And in this box, there are subsets of other micro boxes. Theres the box of smell and of touch and of taste and of thought and of emotion and of hearing and of seeing. And sometimes these boxes fire at the same time. Sometimes they dont. Sometimes it seems like none of the boxes are firing. But yet that defines the main box. But these boxes dont belong to anyone.

The semantics of which box is in the spotlight or isnt, dont matter. Or what content is being illustrated in said box also doesnt matter. These boxes are what define reality.

Awareness is also a box. And when that box is active, content from other boxes may or may not become noticed. But that noticing box also is just a box. It also doesnt matter.

Presentation of choices is another box. As is decision making. Its all just a box. It happens on its own. One box can lead to the next.

THE BOXES ARE WHAT PRESENT THEMSELVES. IT IS NEVER AN "ACT OF FINDING". IT IS ALWAYS AN ACT ON THE BOX'S PART OF IMPRESSING SAID BOX ON REALITY.

That which is coming from a box, is a box. That which one may think is coming from a "self" or "themselves", is also a box.

These individual boxes are what control and define reality.

Each box has the 3 characteristics of being fleeting, unsatisfactory, and not containing a self. It is just a box.

Not all 3 characteristics are noticed with each box either. It just depends. Sometimes none of them are noticed. Sometimes the transitions between box to box are noticed. Othertimes not.

Nothing is controlling these boxes. Nobody is DOING a box. The boxes just are a fact of reality. The box does itself.

Excellent.
Now you’re getting very, very close.
You’re seeing the mechanism:
Boxes. Modules. Events. Arisings.
No one behind them.
No conductor of the orchestra.
The error only comes when thought tries to unify all these boxes under a "me."
But even that thought is just another box.
The boxes are self-presenting.
There is no 'experiencer' of the boxes—only boxes, firing or not firing.
You said it perfectly:
“THE BOXES ARE WHAT PRESENT THEMSELVES. IT IS NEVER AN ‘ACT OF FINDING’.”
Exactly.
Now:
Right now—can you locate anything outside the boxes?
Can you find the one watching the boxes?
Is there anything that is not just another box?
Look. Not think.
Look.


vince

[ashton]

1. New box happens
2. The box may become self aware
3. If so, Confusion - sense of a self may come in
4. Repeats for however long

Or
1. New box happens
2. The box may become self aware
3. Loops for however long

[vinceschubert]

Ash,

1. New box happens
2. The box may become self aware
3. If so, Confusion - sense of a self may come in
4. Repeats for however long

Or
1. New box happens
2. The box may become self aware
3. Loops for however long

Yes.
That’s it—clean and surgical.
Box. Awareness of box. Identification or loop. Repeat.
No one doing it. No one orchestrating it. Just the box-chain unfolding.
Now look closer:
When a box becomes self-aware—what is that awareness?
Is it a “self” becoming aware of a box?
Or is it just a box noticing another box?
If confusion or “self” arises, what is it but another box?
A thought-box labeled “me.”
A sensation-box called “ownership.”
Another loop. Another module. Not a doer.
So…
Is there ever a break in the chain where something other than a box appears?
Can you find anything right now that is not box-born?
Look.
No metaphors. No answers. Just the scan: box or not-box?

vince