Help going from episodic nondual awareness to permanent recognition of no-self

[autoe]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That what I call my "self" is really a temporary set of reactions and patterns of thought and responses. There isnt a concrete self that is experiencing whats coming up in addition to whats coming up. THe story begins and ends with whats coming up without needing some "one" to be there to witness it

What are you looking for at LU? Pointers to permanently remove the feeling of I. Working through the first 3 of the traditional 10 fetters. I'm looking for some 1:1 help in permanently recognizing the absence of a center - i.e. guidance to either directly and permanently make the recognition or to help setup a practice towards this goal

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Guidance to setup either a practice or to permanently recognize the absence of separation between the experiencer and the experience. I have this experience when I stop to look, but not on a deep level where it is my hour to hour or minute to minute reality. I'm looking for someone to help me understand where am i stuck or what it is that will not give.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I've been a daily meditator for 2 years and have recently finished jeffrey martin's 45 days to awakening course and came to a position of non-dual recognition of the experience. That said i've not yet been able to deeply/instinctively been able to realize a sense of no-self

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

First, permanence is a story. What is it that you want to be "permanent?" Did you forget that there is no "self?" Could you forget? If a man puts the red suit back on, do you suddenly forget that there is no "Santa Claus?" No. Same thing.

It won't be 24/7. There's likely to.be a "honeymoon period," and then what we call, "got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned. This can take *years*. Some people do Ten Fetter work. That also takes quite a long time for the additional fetters to drop. After you are clear that there is no "self," and have answered our "final" questions, I can point you to a group that is working with those.

In the meantime, watch this, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Now. Here is my usual introduction:

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[autoe]

Thanks Stacy, for working with me. I've read the housekeeping rules and agree with them.

How will life change?

Honestly, I don't know. I suppose life itself wont change, but in the glimpses of no self that keep having, there is a sudden relief in the form of discharging of emotions. If that can become the usual mode of life that could mean a more present/enjoyable experience of what's coming up

How will you change?

Have a less reactive approach to the little things in life that dont really matter.

What will be different?

Less suffering, more lightness. Or at least that's the hope!

What is missing?

The experience that things just are is missing when needed the most. This leads to getting caught up in trivial stuff that even 5 minutes later reveals itself to be inconsequential. Its like buying a nice iphone, but then when you need it its missing coz you left it at home.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Yes please, that would be amazing! I'm in US/Central Time

[Anastacia42]

Great. What would you like for me to call you?


So, now, what comes up when reading there is no "self," never has been and never will be? That it is all a made-up story?

Loving,

[autoe]

What would you like for me to call you?

Just so I'm understanding correctly, you're looking for my name IRL? Or are you looking for best times to put together a call? If latter, I'm available today 2-6 pm or tomorrow after 12 pm CT if either of those times work. I can also talk Mon-Wed 9 am. Plz LMK if I misunderstood your question!

So, now, what comes up when reading there is no "self," never has been and never will be?

That there is no driver sitting behind the eyes and governing life. There are thoughts that come up and color the waters , and that this color can be strong enough to make the waters opaque. But also a fear that this conditioning is all I have ever known and so recognizing it a few times may not be enough. A different color may replace my conditioned colors, and my reality may stay opaque. But yes, the self was just a shorthand for a group of emotional and habitual responses combined with a feeling of facial expressions.

[Anastacia42]

Yes, a name. It doesn't have to be IRL.

Okay. That question checked for fear & you have some. Only fear & expectations can keep you from seeing clearly that v there's no separate "self." There never has been, so nothing actually changes except your clarity about it.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Loving,

[autoe]

Thanks for the clarification, i thought we were talking about a call, haha! You can call me Robin.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes. that makes sense. The problem I'm trying to solve (it think) is that after having seen the color of my socks, i'm still conditioned to think about them rather than to look at them whever i need to be certain.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Robin,

So, let's practice:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Robin,

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule. There is one this afternoon.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

Loving,

[autoe]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Something like this?


A. Eating a toast:
1. Looking at the toast = seeing
2. Smell of cream cheese = smelling + seeing
3. Eating the toast = feeling + tasting
5. Appreciating the food = thoughts

B. Going for a walk
1. Looking at the path = seeing
2. Taking a step = thinking + feeling
3. Pausing at the intersection = seeing + thoughts
4. Sound of the traffic = hearing
5. Stepping into the intersection = thoughts + feeling

C. Reading a magazine article
1. Looking at the page = seeing
2. The feeling of page in hands = feeling
3. Registering the words of the page = thinking
4. Building ideas from words of page = thinking


D. Watching Sports (on TV)
1. Looking at the TV = seeing
2. Feeling of preferring one team over the other = thoughts
3. Feeling sad about the team losing a wicket = feeling + thoughts
4. Feeling good about preferred team scoring runs = thoughts

[autoe]

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that.

Thanks!

[Anastacia42]

Exactly. Good.

Now try this:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[autoe]

Here we go:

1st 10 mins:
I am sitting on the chair
I feel my feet on the ground
I'm looking at a screen
I feel my fingers typing
I feel pressure around my ears
I take my headphones off
I keep typing
I keep focussing on my typing
I am editing
I feel warm air blowing from the heater
I feel the time is passing by
I looked out of the window
I hear the heater blowing
I feel moisture around my ears
I lift my hand to check on my ears
I continue looking at the screen
I feel the weight of my body on the chair
I feel the sensation of mild discomfort in my belly
I feel a subtle tightness around my throat and face
I scratch my face
I feel my feet on the ground
I feel my back on the chair
I feel the aftertaste of the coffee i had before
I feel breathing

2nd 10 mins
sitting on the chair
fingers typing
seeing the screen
thoughts
back supported by the char
breathing
subtle facial pressure
warmth in the mouth
thoughts
warmth in the legs
hearing of the heater
seeing the keyboard
pressure on fingers
subtle relaxation on forehead
soft pressure on fingers
background sound of soft tinnitus
feeling of tongue touching the roof of mouth
seeing a bright center and soft/grey periphery
breathing
thoughts

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Second one felt more immersive and therefore truer

What is here without labels?

Everything is. like a swiss knife.. hearing seeing feeling tasting smelling all happening by itself independent of other senses

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Hard to say. It feels like they do affect the experience somewhat

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

the unlabelled experience felt a little bit "floaty" or less solid. unpleasent sensations had lower strength. face was a bit more relaxed.Labelled experience felt a little more contrived.

[Anastacia42]

Good. 1 & 2 are good.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Hard to say. It feels like they do affect the experience somewhat

We'll look at this first, then at #4.


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Good. 1 & 2 are good.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Hard to say. It feels like they do affect the experience somewhat

We'll look at this first, then at #4.


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.


Loving,