Break through but not stable

[vinzenz]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Everything happens as a result of an infinite network of causes and conditions. There is no such thing as an inherent 'I' at work 'somewhere deep inside' that is responsible for the decisions that are being made. The "I" that the mind adds to every action is nothing more than a conceptual framework of the mind.

What are you looking for at LU? I want to have more clarity on this topic during the day. At the moment I can see clearly that there is no self. But most of the time it takes some extra effort, like constantly reminding myself, especially in more stressful situations.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Perhaps you have some helpful advice on how to strengthen the process in some way so that there is more clarity in everyday situations. I have read in some of the threads on your website that you are offering further help and Facebook groups after the illusion of a self has been clearly seen. I am expecting some direct help with a guide to fix my experience of no self on a deeper level. So I don't have to keep reminding myself that there is no self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Six years ago I went on a 5 month pilgrimage. After my first rather spontanious "encounter" with No-Self, I began to dig deeper into the "spiritual world". For the last 5 years I have been doing a daily meditation routine, analytical and viapassana meditation. Very soon in this process the question 'who am I' arose, which slightly changed into 'what is I' and finally 'is there an I'. I started reading all the books I could find on the subject. 1.5 years ago I found your website. I read the gateless gatecrashers and Ilonas book. I also read some of the threats on your forum. After a few weeks of intense study it suddenly clicked and I could clearly see that there was never such a thing as a self. I have been trying to deepen this experience ever since. Sometimes it works, sometimes I feel "blind" again. I am not 100% sure if the final shift has already happened, the experience is sometimes very weak and especially outside of meditation or outside of very quiet situations it feels more like an intellectual approach than an experiential one.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Good morning (here near Boulder, CO, USA)

Yes, we can help. We have what we call "final" questions that you can respond to. That will show anything we need to guide you about.

Also, please watch these 2 videos. Seeing won't be 24/7. There's likely to.be a "honeymoon period," and then Wendy we call, "got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned.

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is my usual introduction, but we may be able to skip forward a bit:


My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

TYPO: "What" not "Wendy"

Read this pointer and let me know if you have questions before I send the "final" questions:

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[vinzenz]

Hello Stacy,

Thank you for your quick reply and for the two video links. I really appreciate your efforts to help me with this process. It should be no problem for me to answer within a day or maximum 2 days.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Markus, my timezone is CET+1 (currently living in Spain) and my mother tongue is German, but I try my best to give native English speakers a clue what I am talking about :)

How will life change?

I am not expecting a massive change, but some more stability in seeing clearly without "double checking" and then recognising.

How will you change?

I might be more aware and therefore less reactive in old-fashioned ways when old patterns are triggered and throw me back into identification with a me/self.

What will be different?

There may be less internal stress as I am able to just accept things as they are without the mind getting involved and starting the labelling / judging process and trying to analyse everything.

What is missing?

I miss more stability and less shifting back and forth / in and out. As I write this, I am already noticing that this "I want more of this and that" might be another trick of my mind to keep me searching instead of just stopping and looking and resting in what I see.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I am clear about that. It's just that there seems to be an internal battle going on between seeing clearly when I stop and really look and this lazy mind that seems to be procastrating and telling me: let's read another book about emptiness and be entertained/get some knowledge about the subject instead of just doing the simple direct approach of looking and getting clear again right now.

Thank you once again, all the best,
Markus

[Anastacia42]

Hi Markus,

All good. Your expectations are pretty reasonable. Now, what comes up when reading there is no "self," never has been and never will be? That it is all a made-up story?

Loving,

[vinzenz]

Hello Stacy,

here my result of going through the LU process of self inquiry.

Now, what comes up when reading there is no "self," never has been and never will be? That it is all a made-up story?

The investigations made it clear that there is no self and that there never has been such a thing. The I / me as an inherent instance responsible for 'doing' all these things (or to which everything happens) is nothing more than an invention of the mind. The body, for example, runs completely on its own, and thoughts come and go on their own. It is in the mind's process of analysing and labelling that there is a self as the source of any action that is wrongly seen. This is the made-up story of an ever-present I, while life with all its complex interrelationships runs completely on its own and has always done so. There is no mini-me somewhere deep inside doing the thinking and making the decisions. Not in me, nor in anyone or anything else.

Best regards,
Markus

[Anastacia42]

Yes, Markus. That is clear seeing.

These are "final" questions. We use these to confirm that you are seeing. your answers will be shared with other guides. please use the quote function and answer simply and directly.

As was pointed out in the 2 videos, we expect seeing to come and go possibly for years. Also I've never met anyone that I think sees 100% of the time including all the big name guru types. As long as we are here we seem to encounter false beliefs and sometimes we pick them up.

Some people are doing what is called 10 fetter work. I can share where to find that once we're finished with the questions.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,

[vinzenz]

Hello Stacy,

here my answers:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no inherent self, neither in me nor in anyone or anything else, and there never has been.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Whenever there is a sensory input or a thought, the mind immediately puts another thought on top of it. For example, from the appearance of a certain feeling in the stomach, it goes from 'I feel something in the stomach' to 'I am nervous'. The term 'I am' and the term 'nervous' are nothing more than other thoughts. There is no agent somewhere inside doing the feeling or interpreting what is being felt. It all runs and always runs fully automatically - from the first perception to the final labelling and remembering.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like a release. Instead of being identified with something inherent "me" that is there, constantly fighting for its survival, it´s clearly seen that there is nothing there like a self and there never was. So a lot of the tension that used to build up can no longer do so. If something is triggered by old patterns that are still alive, it has no long-term resistance. So within the whole process there is much more feeling of calm.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was a combination of many things over a long period of time. There was a breakthrough in meditation before I came across the LU forum. What has helped with your direct pointing technique is that the experience is now available not only in meditative states but also in everyday situations. I remember one particular 'aha' moment when I was working with the book 'Gateless Gatecrashers'. In a conversation the example was used: "Is there a little tree inside a tree that does the treeing?" - Of course not, but why or how could there be a mini-Markus inside who rules the Markus outside? The whole appearance of “Markus” was suddenly and still is seen as another (complex) thought.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

I feel hungry and decide to make some fried eggs. What happens is that the body runs out of energy and sends some signals to the stomach. The mind interprets the sensation: hunger! The thought comes: "Should make some food". The feet start to move towards the fridge, the hands open the fridge. Eyes see and mind interprets that there are eggs. Perhaps from previous experience the thought comes: "eggs will do the job". All this happens by itself, fully automatically. The decision to eat some eggs was not made by an inherent self, but just happened as all the sensations came together and led to the final result(s). The mind then adds the label "I" to the story. Instead of 'energy is being put into the stomach', it becomes 'I decided to eat now'.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

The term intention assumes that there is someone or something that 'has' the intention. To have or to have had an intention is just another thought, the result of an ever-labelling mind.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

There has never been anything like free will. Life and all situations unfold on their own. That it is my free will to become a famous rock star is not the result of a self that is open enough to go in that direction. It is the result of the unfolding of life and all its endless interrelationships. At no point in the story is there an intrinsically existing self capable of making decisions out of a free will. That I have free will is another thought.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

I go into a shop to buy some new shoes. In the shop, I decide to take the blue ones. I am happy with my choice. What is really happening is that there is no 'I' involved in any part of the whole story. Seeing blue and green shoes happens. The hand grabs the blue ones. No pressure is felt in trying them on. It is only the mind that adds the I thought to each step in the process: "I prefer blue because I am a strong man", "I feel no pressure, they fit". In fact, the whole process of choosing the blue shoes did not involve any inherent self at any point, the whole process happened all by itself.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

The I-thought assumes that there is always an 'I' in control of everything. Since there is no self at the core of a being, there is nothing in control of anything. Since this has always been the case, it is not a problem (in the sense of losing control) to see that there has never been anything in control.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Things happen by themselves, life is seen as an interconnected web which has no inherent or isolated source at any point. So whatever is happening is a complex web that cannot be grasped by the mind. The tragedy is that the mind will always come up with a story, a pattern of thought that explains the situation we are in. This 'reality' is only the mind's interpretation and is not at all a representation of an objective reality. What we can do is simply look at what is happening in this moment, rather than follow these thoughts and patterns and take them for real.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The I-thought assumes that there is a I who is responsible for taking action in a given situation. For example: The cat is meowing. So I feel responsible to feed the cat. The "I am responsible for" is just another thought pattern that is put on top of all the actions that are running on "autopilot": hearing, interpreting, acting...

6) Anything to add?

For now its ok :), I hope I expressed myself in an understandable way.

Thank you once again, best regards
Markus

[Anastacia42]

Good, Markus. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions. Stay tuned!

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Another guide has these questions, based on your assertion that stories are a tragedy:

"Are stories and explanations in and of themselves good or bad?"

"Are stories and explanations in and of themselves useful or not?"

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Markus. did you see the question above? There's one more:


ask them what "body", "hands", "eyes" and "mind" are. Do they do things?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

Loving,

[vinzenz]

LU4

Hello Stacy.

Sorry for not replying earlier, but unlike before I did not receive an email notification of a reply to the threat. Out of curiosity I looked directly at the forum and saw your replies. Thanks for the links and email contacts!

Here are my further explanations:

"Are stories and explanations in and of themselves good or bad?"

The 'tradegy' I meant was that all this automatic labelling of the mind leads to an endless loop of reinventing the I-story over and over again. The stories that the mind creates out of any given situation are not inherently good or bad. Good and bad are just seen as other thoughts in relation to the standpoint of the I-thought. Also, this viewpoint of an I-thought is an automatic created (quite complex) thought and not something inherent existing which has control.

"Are stories and explanations in and of themselves useful or not?"

At first it seems that stories and explanations are useful for survival in everyday life and as a means of communication, e.g. "it will hurt to touch a hot plate on the stove". But what really happens is that the hand on the hot plate does move by itself fully automatically, the thought "dont touch that" comes after / on top of the action. It is not that there is an I remembering or in control to avoid something. Since all these reactions happen automatically anyway, the stories that are created about what is happening can be seen as useless.

ask them what "body", "hands", "eyes" and "mind" are. Do they do things?

Body, hands, eyes and mind are just other labels created. A hand, for example, does not do anything by itself, it cannot, because it does not exist by itself.
Similarly, 'mind' is just another label created for communication purposes. There is no autonomous "thing" or "object" out there that could make decisions or create thought on its own.


Thanks again, from now on I will keep an eye on the treat daily if there is a response!
Best regards,
Markus

[Anastacia42]

That works. I've posted your replies to the forum. Stay tuned!

[vinzenz]

Hi Stacy!

I just received an email from Nerina today with more links and information. Thank you so much for all the work and effort you have put in over the last few days to help me with this process. The work that is done on LU has been the primary key to finally seeing it and feel much more calm in times of "in and out". Thank you very much for the time you spent to help me too! Probably there will be a time soon, when I am able to help within the LU forum...

All the best, lots of love
Markus