Thanks for existing

[Jerry907]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Taking the statement literally: the self isn’t in the real world. Looking around right now with eyes, an I is nowhere to be seen.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for the quickest route possible to attaining what the I says is the ultimate prize of enlightenment so I can win at life early and live out of the rest of my days in non-stop pleasure and superiority to those that aren’t enlightened, or became enlightened after me.

At the same time, there’s a part that sees the above intention as a silly bundle of thoughts, and instead looks to see things for how they are, and seeks assistance here with doing that.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Ideally, I’d like to say I expect nothing. Somehow I’ve appeared and now it’s seeing what comes next.

In actuality, I expect a lot: getting what is helpful in this unique case to see that there is no self. A feeling of connection. A voice of reason that tells me when I stray away from the point. Assistance identifying and deconstructing preconceptions. Truth, however harsh it is. In metaphorical terms: a push over the edge, a finger in the right direction.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Infrequent bouts of mindfulness and meditation since 2017. A more-rigorous mindfulness practice since mid-2022. Meditating several times a week in different forms this past year. Occasional self-inquiry since 2023, with a more-rigorous practice (almost once every day) for the past 2 months. Occasional forays into psychedelics since 2020.

I would consider my daily life at this point to be an imperfect, but evolving spiritual practice.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Alless]

Hello Jerry907

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

My name is Alan and I’m very happy to help you see through the notion of a separate self.

I see you have been waiting for nearly a month. We do our best to respond as soon as we can but sometimes it takes longer than we expect with the number of people asking for a guide. Just know you weren't forgotten and hope you are still happy to dive into this investigation.

When I read what you call the "silly bundle of thoughts" describing what are you looking for at LU, it certainly got my attention !! The surprise settled when I read what you wrote next.

So if you would like to look deeply together, here are some suggestions to help make the best use of this opportunity:

Post daily to keep up the momentum. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know, I’ll do the same.

Leave aside all other “spiritual” related resources - books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. This a chance to have a completely fresh look. Try to leave aside everything you learned up till now. Here we are going to depend on your Actual Experience, not from what you have read, heard, learned or known so far. Only from what you yourself can observe directly in the moment from looking at what is here right now.

Be 100% honest. And write as much as you can. This is about honest exploration and we are not looking for what appears to be “right” answers. Just report as best you can only what you are experiencing in the moment.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/regi ... sclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

So if you'd like to get started just let me know if this is all OK with you.

Do you have any burning questions?

Alan

[Jerry907]

So if you'd like to get started just let me know if this is all OK with you.

Do you have any burning questions?

Hi Alan,

This is all okay with me, and there's no burning questions at the moment

Jerry

[Alless]

Hello Jerry,

Really good to see your reply.

I do have a couple of questions. The first relates to the your response to

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

You say you are a 9

I'm really curious as to why you are not 100% willing to question any currently held beliefs about 'self. '

Please FEEL INTO THIS and tell me what comes - particularly what emotions come up.




And then I notice you say

I would consider my daily life at this point to be an imperfect

What is it that you consider to be imperfect?




And just a couple of "technical" things.
Firstly, you'll notice I will highlight questions for you to consider and respond to in blue text.

And then
What time zone are you in?



I am on the Australian east coast time zone.


Alan

[Jerry907]

You say you are a 9

I'm really curious as to why you are not 100% willing to question any currently held beliefs about 'self. '

Please FEEL INTO THIS and tell me what comes - particularly what emotions come up.

Immediately upon reading this, I felt defensive and justifications came up in my head. Following, I felt impressed at the instruction for triggering that response and some doubt for the validity of this method faded. There’s some feelings of worry that because I put a 9 that I’ll be disqualified from this, and a desire to explain my reasoning to prevent that. I also feel skeptical on the validity of that aforementioned worry. Finally, there’s a feeling of my expectations being subverted and that’s somewhat funny to me.

What is it that you consider to be imperfect?

Now that you ask, I’m not entirely sure anymore. I guess I consider occasional feelings of dissatisfaction, lack of focus, and lack of love to all be imperfect. Not feeling fully self realized is also something I’d consider to be imperfect. After putting this to writing, I feel like it’s kinda silly.

What time zone are you in?

Eastern Standard Time

[Alless]

Hi Jerry,

Immediately upon reading this, I felt defensive and justifications came up in my head.

Defensiveness and going to the head is a pretty typical default reaction at this stage.
Without thinking about it can you find what it is that is reacting this way?

There’s some feelings of worry that because I put a 9 that I’ll be disqualified from this, and a desire to explain my reasoning to prevent that.

The only way disqualification can occur here Jerry is you disqualifying yourself through not being TOTALLY WILLING to look at EVERY BELIEF. Willingness, honesty and curiosity that spring from an insatiable thirst for truth that will only be satisfied by truth itself are fundamental in this investigation.

You did say at the start that in this dialogue you expected

Truth, however harsh it is.

Is that still the case?

Finally, there’s a feeling of my expectations being subverted and that’s somewhat funny to me.

and

Not feeling fully self realized is also something I’d consider to be imperfect.

I would really like you to talk more about your expectations. Give yourself time to ponder these points then send me what comes.

How do you expect life to change? What will be different?




How will you change?




What do you hope to gain?




Is there anything you fear losing?




What is missing now?




And one more thing for today. Let the following statement really sink in.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?




What's the first thought to pop into your head?



Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?



Any other reactions - subtle or strong?



Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

I’m posting a response tonight, just wanted to let you know.

Jerry

[Alless]

No problem Jerry. Thank you.

I do appreciate the heads up

Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Without thinking about it can you find what it is that is reacting this way?

Without thinking about it, I can’t find what it is that’s reacting that way. There’s the screen, the room past the screen, these words, the feeling of my body, and other sensations but nothing that’s reacting with defensiveness when I’m not thinking.

Is that still the case?

Yes, though the expectation feels restrained because there’s thoughts that the expectation of truth could be an obstacle to truth.

How do you expect life to change? What will be different?

I expect life to naturally follow a path that will eventually lead to everything making sense in an obvious yet unforeseen way. Life may not necessarily be any different from what it was but how I view life would be different.

How will you change?

I will generally be less stressed, leading to a relaxed and healthier body. I’ll have less attachment to the body, and could handle pain without discomfort or sadness. I’ll perceive more accurately than before and be more immersed in life.

What do you hope to gain?

An ability to seamlessly navigate life wherever it goes. An ability to love unconditionally. A strong sense of intuition when it comes to my actions and conduct.

Is there anything you fear losing?

My life, use of my limbs and reproductive organs, intact-ness of my shins and lower spine. My status of not being incarcerated.

What is missing now?

Right now, not much. There’s still this response to write and send, I guess I could use some food and water as well.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?

Subtle. Heart rate went up, eyebrows furrowed for a moment. Strong compulsion to re-read it several times. Moderate-to-strong reaction where the gaze softens a bit and field of view expands to not only see the screen but also encompass the room.

What's the first thought to pop into your head?

I’ve read this before

Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?

Frustration, excitement, mild clarity, fear of losing that clarity, relief at being able to somewhat maintain it, doubt that the clarity is real, surprise at being able to notice the doubt. Brief pride, followed by a chastening of that pride. Curiosity if the chain of emotions moved beyond the scope of this question.

Any other reactions - subtle or strong?

Moderate surprise at the results of that line of questions, and some weak but genuine laughter. Strong gratitude as well.

Thank you for this,
Jerry

[Alless]

Hello Jerry

but nothing that’s reacting with defensiveness when I’m not thinking.

So true. Our default of going to thought for answers is at the root of the whole problem we wrestle with here.

Yes, though the expectation feels restrained because there’s thoughts that the expectation of truth could be an obstacle to truth.

Yes because thought is again involved in the expectation - there's the potential obstacle

Life may not necessarily be any different from what it was but how I view life would be different.

There is wisdom here Jerry and even with that there can be subtle preconceived ideas that can get in the way of this exploration

How will you change?

I will generally be less stressed, leading to a relaxed and healthier body. I’ll have less attachment to the body, and could handle pain without discomfort or sadness. I’ll perceive more accurately than before and be more immersed in life.

What do you hope to gain?

An ability to seamlessly navigate life wherever it goes. An ability to love unconditionally. A strong sense of intuition when it comes to my actions and conduct.

As much as you are able, please put these aside for now. What you write here may or may not be your experience and certainly is in no way a prerequisite to seeing clearly that there is no self. The hope that this will be the outcome in the way you imagine it, is typically a barrier. In fact what often is experienced is that emotions become even stronger. This is perfectly normal as our direct experiencing is less veiled by the illusion of thought. In fact the deeper we go the more we feel an openness to experience everything in the most direct way we can.

Does this raise any significant concerns for you?

Is there anything you fear losing?

My life, use of my limbs and reproductive organs, intact-ness of my shins and lower spine. My status of not being incarcerated.

What is missing now?

Right now, not much. There’s still this response to write and send, I guess I could use some food and water as well.

All understandable and not necessarily the sort of expectations that can get in the way from what I understand you to be saying.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?

Subtle. Heart rate went up, eyebrows furrowed for a moment. Strong compulsion to re-read it several times. Moderate-to-strong reaction where the gaze softens a bit and field of view expands to not only see the screen but also encompass the room.

What's the first thought to pop into your head?

I’ve read this before

Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?

Frustration, excitement, mild clarity, fear of losing that clarity, relief at being able to somewhat maintain it, doubt that the clarity is real, surprise at being able to notice the doubt. Brief pride, followed by a chastening of that pride. Curiosity if the chain of emotions moved beyond the scope of this question.

Any other reactions - subtle or strong?

Moderate surprise at the results of that line of questions, and some weak but genuine laughter. Strong gratitude as well.

I can relate to what you write here very much. There is a lot here actually. I sense we won't unpack it right now but it will serve us well as a reference point as we go through the exploration.



Having said that there is this that you say....

some weak but genuine laughter. Strong gratitude as well.

Is there anything else you can say about this? (if you can)





Jerry I do want to say that I feel the earnestness and authenticity in what you write. This will serve us well in this exploration.


It's important to be acutely conscious of expectations and the thing to really be aware of is that expectations can cloud our investigation through having some preconceived notion about how we BELIEVE this will unfold. Expectations can seem to exert a power in and of themselves that add to the illusion we are subject to in the "conventional dualistic" way of living. The one certainty in this endeavour at LU is that what unfolds is never as we expect it to.

To find the truth of "no self" the approach here is to deconstruct the idea of the separate self. It is an unlearning, an undoing and for this reason the best way to approach this is to put aside everything you think you know or expect and just be with this exploration with an openness and a willingness to LOOK directly. By applying the exercises and questions given throughout this exploration in your day to day living - not just sitting and pondering or imagining what we are exploring - but actually applying the ideas to your life and seeing them in action…actually doing the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out, you will then be able to LOOK and see that even though the separate self seems to appear over and over, the truth is that it actually can never be found. It is this continual ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that is the key. Eventually it won't matter that the sense of a separate self still appears...there is simply a knowing that it is a concept - a fictitious imaginary character. This exploration is not about getting rid of the separate self or getting rid of anything, but seeing that there was never a separate limited self to start with.

All that is asked is that you LOOK every day and LOOK diligently…not for anyone’s sake but for your own – for you to be 100% committed to yourself (as we have talked about already) in order to see through the idea of being the separate self. It is through this diligent LOOKING that realizations happen. On the flip side, being gentle with one self is also good. Many years of thinking one is a limited separate entity with ingrained beliefs and conditioning isn’t necessarily going to disappear overnight. So being gentle with yourself and having compassion for yourself is very necessary.


So let us now look at one of the keys we will use in this exploration.


Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE for short)

So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation,not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising(but not their content)

We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?



Can you be 100% sure?



When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.


One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)



What are you are hearing? (without labels.)



A

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Does this raise any significant concerns for you?

Not at all

Is there anything else you can say about this? (if you can)

The laughter seemed to be a physical expression of relief. Starting out there was an expectation that the statement wouldn’t do anything, followed by foreboding thoughts, so when something did happen I felt relief for my expectations clearly being wrong and then fading away. Wasn’t exactly sure about the gratitude so I revisited the emotion and now I can say the gratitude was a facet of the same feeling the word relief was used to label.

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?

Magenta

Can you be 100% sure?

No, not until I check

When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?

No, not exactly. It has a color that could be labeled as magenta but in truth the actual experience of the color is completely unlike anything a memory can replicate.

What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

All I’m seeing is what’s here.

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

All I’m hearing is what’s here.

Ah, this felt like a nice way to start the morning. Thank you,

Jerry

[Alless]

Beautiful Jerry,

It has a color that could be labeled as magenta but in truth the actual experience of the color is completely unlike anything a memory can replicate.

So true.

OK. Let's explore SEEING and LABELING a little more.

To the question "What are you are seeing? (without labels.)" you say .....

All I’m seeing is what’s here.

True enough. And we do have to use words - albeit they are so inadequate. We do have to use words and labels to communicate and point.
.
Language itself is a labeling phenomenon and every word but a symbol. So what we are looking for here is to reduce the description of experience down to the most fundamental, simple descriptor. That is, describing our experience with minimal interference from the mind - without adding the content of any thoughts or interpretations. (Mind is the term we use for streams of thought. Some would challenge that such a thing as a mind exists. However for practical purposes here we will use the term mind)


So if a five year old was to ask "So what do you mean by what's here Jerry?" In the most basic terms what would you tell them that you see?




Imagine what a baby sees when they first open their eyes.

What would you say they are seeing? Do they have any labels in their mind?



Would it be different to what a 5 year old is likely to describe?




Labeling is one "overlay" of reality that is happening so instantaneously that it happens for most people automatically without them realizing it. Labeling pervades thinking. The aim is not to rid ourselves of labels (we have to use them to communicate in conventional daily living) but to see them for what they are. Labeling is sometimes described as at least one step removed from reality.

Here is an exercise to help see how labeling can cloud AE. (I’ll use AE as short for Actual Experience. And DE andAE are inter- changeable terms)

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN', what is your actual experience?



You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?



Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?



Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?



If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?



Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?



Let me know what is SEEN.




Next time you go for a walk practice looking without labeling.

I’d love to hear. What happened?



Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

So if a five year old was to ask "So what do you mean by what's here Jerry?" In the most basic terms what would you tell them that you see?

Color sorted into different colors. Different colors next to eachother appears as lines that make up shapes. Some shapes overlap other shapes, and this appears as near and far. Some colors become other colors, and this appears as change. This appears as movement if overlapping shapes become the colors of the shapes they’re overlapping and the shapes they’re overlapping become the colors of the overlapping shapes.

What would you say they are seeing? Do they have any labels in their mind?

They are seeing sensation I would assume, this sensation would have no forms it is encoded in or labels it is constrained to.

Would it be different to what a 5 year old is likely to describe?

Yes, I would imagine a 5 year old exposed to language would differentiate sensation into colors, shapes, things, orientations, and other convenient labels

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN', what is your actual experience?

Seeing red lines, and a feeling of confusion with a very mild headache. Looking at it long enough, the word itself looks uncanny and unreal.

You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?

I’m seeing red and the minds eye has an image of green when the thought of green comes up, but the redness remains the same. I can clearly see it’s red but the fact that the redness is arranged in such a way that I think of a color I do not associate with red when I look at it makes my eyes hurt.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

No it does not, the label appears independent of observable reality. My association with that particular arrangement of lines results in a suggestion in my mind that conflicts with what I’m directly perceiving.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

No it is not. The word green appears as a label that overlays any experience of color.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, not after scrutiny.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Redness does not become good or bad, it just is. The labels have no effect on reality.

Let me know what is SEEN.

Focusing on just seeing, there’s the same case of color that becomes different colors that begin to encode into lines, and shapes when a stream of thoughts is in my head, or at least when I tune into a stream of thoughts.

Next time you go for a walk practice looking without labeling.

I’d love to hear. What happened?

I will be doing this later today and I’ll write what happened tonight.

Jerry

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Next time you go for a walk practice looking without labeling.

I’d love to hear. What happened?

Walked several times today. Initially, there wasn’t much going on in my head as the mental space I’d normally allocate to casually analyzing and categorizing what’s around was instead taken up by focusing on each step or relaxing. It felt natural to let the space be filled by something else. Throughout the day I would experience brief periods of that state while walking, but would just as quickly lapse into unconsciously labeling or simply losing focus and having little idea of what was going on.

Towards the end of the day however, still determined to try until it felt right, I felt my vision relax and widen as I was walking. I noticed that by not focusing on specific parts of the environment and taking in everything around me, there was a palpable absence of labeling and an inkling of stillness. This was partially clouded by thoughts of excitement or plans of what to include in my response. As I was getting ready to head home I was able to consciously enter it again and had pretty much the same experience but blunted by some fatigue and anxiety about probably being late for bed tonight. After relaxing my vision for long enough the space between my eyebrows felt a bit strained.

Anyways, heading to bed now. Hopefully withholding any revisions or proof-reads for the sake of sleep enhances the authenticity instead of muddling the point.

Jerry

[Alless]

Hi Jerry,

You have reported much and to do it justice I will break the response up into 2 or 3 posts. I sense you are throwing yourself into this. 😊😊😊

Color sorted into different colors. Different colors next to eachother appears as lines that make up shapes. Some shapes overlap other shapes, and this appears as near and far. Some colors become other colors, and this appears as change. This appears as movement if overlapping shapes become the colors of the shapes they’re overlapping and the shapes they’re overlapping become the colors of the overlapping shapes.

You got it in the first word. Color. This is "what is" in the visual field. Any further explanation invokes concepts ! The word "color" which is a symbol, a label for "what is" in the visual field is the most basic way of describing it.
Can you see how the word "shape" is already a concept, a label that describes or is simply an interpretation of an "arrangement" of colors?

Yes, I would imagine a 5 year old exposed to language would differentiate sensation into colors, shapes, things, orientations, and other convenient labels

Indeed. This differentiating through the development of language is the basis of conditioning and the veiling of reality.

The overlaying and then BELIEVING of thoughts to be true is what creates this which we call illusion.

I do want to emphasize the wonder of this we call the mind. It comes in for such a bad rap. However it is not the enemy as such. It is just that for the longest time we haven't realized how we can be hypnotized by it. We need it to function in this relative world and to be free we need to be awake to its "mechanisms." Like so many things in this world, an amazing servant but when its wily ways are not recognized, it turns into a tyrant of a master.

Let's now take this exercise. Take a cup for instance. Grab one and hold it in your hand.

Let your gaze settle on it. Let your attention be thoroughly absorbed by the colors. Do your best to avoid labeling in any way. Just let the tones, the complexities, the subtleness of the colors be SEEN for what they are.
What happens in this experiencing?



Can what is seen be in any way accurately described?



As you are looking at the cup, now notice its features. As you look at it notice what is happening in your experience.
Are there thoughts labeling what you see? A handle perhaps, the lip, the shape of it?



Is there any distinction between seeing, looking and noticing for you?



Can you find some specific thing that we can call a "me" doing the seeing?



Watch thoughts as you consider who is seeing. Notice what happens to seeing as you consider this. Did the seeing change in any way or stop?



Now simply watch thoughts as you look at the cup.
After a while of watching thoughts, what happens to them?




As you watch the thoughts does the experience of seeing the cup change in any way?




Now look for spaces between thoughts.
Focus on seeing in the spaces. They may be milliseconds, but notice them.
What happens in your experience as you attend to the spaces?




As this seeing is happening, ask yourself "Is there a seer or a seen within or without the seeing?"




Or is there only seeing?



When you finish seeing, do you then recognize that which we call a cup is a concept? A cup that has uses and takes up space, and need washing after use? A concept that includes shape, form, color, what it is intended to be used for.
..but we aren't actually seeing it anymore. We look at it but recognize a vessel to contain something.

The "details" are all still there but are now typically veiled.

Now do this with a flower (or any other object) and see what is experienced. Let me know what stands out for you.



As I said I'll take 2 or 3 bites in responding to your posts so will leave it there Jerry. We don't need to overload things.

Giving yourself time to really LOOK and FEEL into these questions is so important.

No need to rush. Just let me know if you need more time.

And as we continue please challenge anything that you feel is “off” for a want of a better way of putting it !!

We'll come back to the red/green exercise and what you reported in your walk next.


Alan