I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

[Sanna]

Mark...Thank You!

Feelings of F--king H--l!

All this 'time'...'behind' the sensation-feeling- thought....THE ACTUAL BEING HERE!

Love this from your email -"The same thing that has the capacity or ability for mountains, clouds and aurora borealis is the real who or what and you and I (for the sake of conversation) are just a tiny part of it."

:)

[mark_tywharton]

Cool, I am going to ask Ilona to read our conversation and comment.

[Sanna]

This morning -

The little laughs that break out spontaneously - some sort of recognition/remembrance of Being. That there Is This Presence - Here.

The sensation of presence gets translated (some kind of imaginary projection) into an idea of a me having an experience - that idea somehow gets to be believed in as though it were a fact, as though there really were an actual thing/object called a me.

It isn't so much that there is a seeing that there isn't anywhere an actual me, rather - That there is This indecribable mysterious 'something' that is the capacity/source of all appearance/experience and that the idea of an actual me is part of that appearance/experience.

There exists simultaneously the Capacity and the appearance/experience. Though the appearances/experiences are ever changing and cannot be separated from the Capacity for their existence, the Capacity/source never changes in the sense that it IS always Present.

[mark_tywharton]

Good, excellent!

Okay, so in the same way an artist might examine assumptions about what is seen in order to start to see the true landscape (sky is blue - is it?), start to notice this 'quality' that came to light in this conversation is never changing while everything else here always changes.

When you drive in your car, do you go actually go anywhere?

Or does the scenery just change and come to you?

There is probably no 'right' answer to this question, though one answer provides an interesting line of enquiry. Examining this and other paradigms, then cultivating a flexible view point, can allow shifts in the context of life that allow for freedom in all sorts of situations, especially where those situations seem fixed and intractable.

And yet, whatever happens, que sera sera, still nothing can touch this.

[mark_tywharton]

Of course that should probably have read

When you drive in your car, does it actually go anywhere?

Or does the scenery just change and come to it?

*laughing*

[mark_tywharton]

digging a hole

none of this is meant to imply anything separate is doing anything it is just a way of looking

[Sanna]

Okay, so in the same way an artist might examine assumptions about what is seen in order to start to see the true landscape (sky is blue - is it?), start to notice this 'quality' that came to light in this conversation is never changing while everything else here always changes.

When you drive in your car, does it actually go anywhere? Or does the scenery just change and come to it?

There is probably no 'right' answer to this question, though one answer provides an interesting line of enquiry. Examining this and other paradigms, then cultivating a flexible view point, can allow shifts in the context of life that allow for freedom in all sorts of situations, especially where those situations seem fixed and intractable.

And yet, whatever happens, que sera sera, still nothing can touch this.

Yeah, kind of like the dreams appear and disappear but the Dreamer is simply still and silent - Seeing/Perceiving it all go by. All those dream appearances/events/experiences give the impression that something actually happened, that the dreams actually went somewhere, and that something was achieved - that holes where actually dug, buildings built and lives lived - when actually, "The Dream Dreamer!" When the "I" is seen to NOT be the doer of anything, a sense of lightness, freedom to all possiblities - strange!

"Que sera sera." And whatever it is it Is. "Nothing can touch this." - "Look in my eyes, man, U can't touch this!"

[Sanna]

A continuation of the above ^

Mark....truly...thank you for all the pointing....it's as though there were all those 'glimpses/intimations' (During the past few years) but somehow it all didn't fall into place...through this conversation it's all clearer now!

Read about it being obvious...but this is a joke....This Always Present - BEING.

[mark_tywharton]

Good morning Sanna,

So how is it today?

[Sanna]

Hi Mark...

Being aware/conscious of - The perceiving of the present experience.

The body responding from its biological inheritance and conditioning to the world, the world responding to that, one action-interaction, and all this is an experiencing, there is the perceiving of that.

In amongst all this is the sensation of a me having the experience but, simultaneously there is the perceiving of the body responding/behaving/functioning as it is.

Seeing the conditioning and belief structures of the body, seeing how those are being used by the body to survive in the world the best way that it can. Seeing the beliefs that are based on acquired knowledge that aren't necessarily true.

Curious attention being paid to how amazing it is that 'everything' is being as it is but constantly changing, as if in response to it's own presence (as it is) - at the moment, can't really put this into the 'appropriate' words.

All exists in the perceiving of it.

[mark_tywharton]

Okay, just need to ask one final thing

Can you confirm that you've seen through the illusion of I

What is Phil?

How does this character work?

[Sanna]

Okay, just need to ask one final thing. Can you confirm that you've seen through the illusion of I? What is Phil?
How does this character work?

Phil is an idea, the idea - Phil - cannot see anything.

There is the sensation of being alive - being here, then there are feelings and thoughts about that sensation. An I is imagined to exsist as an actual entity separate from This Life (as though Life itself places it's perceiving from the perspective of this imagined I, and somehow takes to believing that experience is being experienced from the position of the imagined I, but when awareness is placed upon the source of all experiencing, then the I is seen to be a fiction an imagining, an idea.)

There is the body getting on with it's thing, doing the best it can, within that whole process is the idea that there is also a Phil - as some sort of soul/spirit- that is in experience of the bodily sensations and that this Phil is also capable of making choices, the choices are really those of the body, the body is confronted with certain situations and responds/functions accordingly.

I exists only as the thought I.

The character Phil is an idea without any actual location or destination.

[mark_tywharton]

Perfect.

Okay there is a pretty standard set of questions from LU at this point as a sort of final check/control.

1. Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

2. Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

3. How does it feel to be liberated?

4. How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no separate entity ‘me’?

[Sanna]

1. Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

The family dog is called Sonny. It could be said that this particular body and it's conditioning and functioning is called Phil. The name Phil has been imposed upon the body.

There isn't a you. There is the existence of the idea of a you - only the you that is thought of, imagined.

2. Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

The self cannot be seen because there isn't a self to see (in both senses of that phrase).

There is the Capacity for the appearance of the thought - self.

Self is an illusion. - The sensation of being here is projected/taken as being the body, the self.

Self cannot do anything because it is not here - it does not exist, except in thought.

There is the imagining that the self lived a life, but actually it -self- has no life except as a thought.

The self is a story of a self.

Self is imagination.

Without the Source/Capacity, (new favourite word - capacity.) there cannot be the presence of the thought - self.

Self cannot exist other than has a thought.

Capacity plays at being the self - Capacity entertains the idea of a self.

3. How does it feel to be liberated?

That question has no meaning in a meaningless state.

4. How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no separate entity ‘me’?

If this universe didn't exist, there couldn't exist the idea of a me.



Mark...sorry for the lack of detail but, it's all getting repetitive. :)

Life is - "Free to be me", even if it's only a pretend me.

[Sanna]

Hi Mark....this morning....


Me exists in the 'form' of a thought (me is only a thought ) - there isn't in existence an actual entity "me/self/I" that is other than, separate from this world of appearances/experiencing. There is only the one appearance/one experiencing. There are not billions of human beings having experiences, there is only One Consciousness 'as if' seeing/experiencing through the 'apparent' lives of billions of 'human beings.' There are not billions of separate experiences, there is only the ONE EXPERIENCING.

Life -as if -places its attention/consciousness upon the appearances and takes those appearances to be the only reality, as though forgetting that it is in fact the very life of the appearances and 'no matter' what may appear as that world of appearances it has absolutely no effect upon the LIFE that gives rise/life to the appearances.

There isn't an "i" that sees any of this, there is simply the appearance of an apparent human being doing so, or appearing to have the experience. All is one appearance, appearing IN THE SEEING/PERCEVING of it.

Like a dream appearing in the dreamer. The appearances appear IN the SEEING/PERCEVING of them. There is only the SEEING-PERCEVING.

Mark, Your 'insistence' :) that there be a looking 'behind' the feelings was what 'appears' now as the change/shift/ of perspective - not from the illusion of an imagined separate I/me/self but, from the Seeing that the illusion of that imagined i appears in the Seeing - the attention had always been on the thoughts about the thoughts, but not really on where those thoughts were appearing, I mean not REALLY. -


Prior to any meaning being attached to the experience.

Simple as that - once it's recognised of course!

The experiencing itself, as it is.

Life is happening here now.

If the seeing is from an imagined i then that seeing sees the world as a world of separate things, it sees only separation, there is then a belief that I am separate, as is 'everything else'. When the seeing is from the space that there isn't in fact any separation anywhere, simply this present happening now as one whole completeness, then that is what is seen.

There is the capacity for the presence of thoughts, creating and imagination and feeling of there being an actual separate i, there is also the capacity for the seeing of the illusion of that imagined i.

LIfe is the very life of appearance, without that mysterious 'something' there cannot exist any appearance/
experiencing, life is the life/light of experiencing itself.

To continue with this attempt at trying to put it into words is going round in circles...all getting lost in translation. :)


Mark...thank you for all the pointing/guiding, this has been a wonderful experience....seeing through the illusion!

With much gratitude,
Phil.