Hello

[JonathanR]

Hi Jonny

. When I look at an object, I'm looking at awareness and it feels like sight is something I'm aware of is the simplest way I know how to put it. Like I'm aware that there's sight and my vision is all contained in awareness and I can't see anything other than what's being seen

I'm going to fire a few questions tonight.

With the white cup, for instance; when only looking, seeing the whitish shape, how is it known that this is 'an object'?

In the immediate experience of that whiteness is a 'self' found to be doing the looking?

Is awareness a thing that physically contains experience , like some sort of huge spiritual Tupperware container ? Or could it be that direct experience of life, whiteness, sensations, even thoughts, just happen?...are noticed, but are then spoken of as happening "in awareness"?

All best

Jon

[Joutai]

I'm going to fire a few questions tonight.

With the white cup, for instance; when only looking, seeing the whitish shape, how is it known that this is 'an object'?

In the immediate experience of that whiteness is a 'self' found to be doing the looking?

Is awareness a thing that physically contains experience , like some sort of huge spiritual Tupperware container ? Or could it be that direct experience of life, whiteness, sensations, even thoughts, just happen?...are noticed, but are then spoken of as happening "in awareness"?

All best

Jon

I seem to be having trouble being able to just see. I noticed the mind trying to make sense of the seeing almost immediately. Like the mind is trying to make the object what it is by seeing where the white stop and everything around it begins.

There still seems to be a center that identifies as individual from everything but can't do anything to go against what's happening. Like it's separate and connected at the same time.

Things feel like they're happening within awareness itself. For me, it seems like experience and awareness are one and the same like I can't be aware and not experience or I can't experience without being aware. Yet I do have a sense of a self that's experiencing all this but can't control the experience itself.

Thanks for being patient with me since it's been about a week with this inquiry.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

. When I look at an object, I'm looking at awareness and it feels like sight is something I'm aware of is the simplest way I know how to put it

If looking at an object is looking at awareness,, are there any 'separate objects' in the conventional sense ?

But also, is there really a separate 'I' that 'is aware' or is this quality of noticing just happening ?

Love

Jon

[Joutai]

Hi Johnny

. When I look at an object, I'm looking at awareness and it feels like sight is something I'm aware of is the simplest way I know how to put it

If looking at an object is looking at awareness,, are there any 'separate objects' in the conventional sense ?

But also, is there really a separate 'I' that 'is aware' or is this quality of noticing just happening ?

Love

Jon

There is still an "I" that feels like it is what's aware.

[JonathanR]

Is that all there is?

[Joutai]

It feels like there's an I that is kind of reacting to experience and sometimes there is still the identification with thoughts that come. It usually takes a bit to realize there's identity with thoughts. Like a me that's at the whim of experiences but can't do anything but kind of complain and resist what's happening. And experiences and everything are happing to it involuntarily.

[JonathanR]

. It feels like there's an I that is kind of reacting to experience and sometimes there is still the identification with thoughts that come.

Is that a discreet entity, separate from anything?

Can that entity be found?

Is there an "I' that "reacts"? Or is it that the "I" is infered from the reaction ?

. Like a me that's at the whim of experiences but can't do anything but kind of complain and resist what's happening

Is that a real 'me', somewhere? Or could the "me" be a story ABOUT a ."me", long assumed to be a real entity?

All best

Jon

[Joutai]

Is that a discreet entity, separate from anything?

Can that entity be found? [\quote]

It feels like it's part of everything yet individual. There isn't a discreet entity I can find, just a feeling of separateness even when it can't be separated from how things are just unfolding with everything around it.

Is there an "I' that "reacts"? Or is it that the "I" is infered from the reaction ?

The "I" always feels kinda past tense but I'm not sure if that makes sense? Like the moment is just happening then there's a reaction to what's happening. There isn't much of a sense of "I" for something simple like ordering ice cream. There's no reference to an "I." It's usually when there's an uncomfortable feeling then the "I" shows up and tries to figure it out. Sometimes the "I" that shows up slowly fades when I realize making the situation about "me" is what's causing things to spiral. Still difficult to detect, but it's been getting a tad easier to see resistance with my body tensing up.

Is that a real 'me', somewhere? Or could the "me" be a story ABOUT a ."me", long assumed to be a real entity?

No entity is found. There's like a momentum of old narratives of me that still comes at times and it can reassert itself but rarely does it last too long. Some narratives come and don't stick but I don't really know why.

Hope I was able to be clear.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

What you've written is clear and sounds good.

It does prompt one or two questions...

. There isn't a discreet entity I can find, just a feeling of separateness even when it can't be separated from how things are...

Ok. Is this separation a feeling alone, or is there also an inherent thought element with it, like an undercurrent of conceptualisation and judgement "separation". Please look at this over the next two days.

Is the perception of separateness a problem, and for who, or what?

. It's usually when there's an uncomfortable feeling then the "I" shows up and tries to figure it out.

Interesting that it involves an attempt to 'figure out'.

What if this just happens; the uncomfortable sensation / event and the appearance of an "I" that appears to struggle for a while and is then recognised as an appearance?

Would it be worse if there were no recognition, just a constant immersion in a story of 'self' ?


Jon

[Joutai]

Ok. Is this separation a feeling alone, or is there also an inherent thought element with it, like an undercurrent of conceptualisation and judgement "separation". Please look at this over the next two days.

Is the perception of separateness a problem, and for who, or what?

I used to identify as a pretty lonely person, but I don't really experience loneliness for months now. And I spent lots of time alone. Not really as wearing the question, but maybe it'll add some context.

It doesn't feel alone. Like I don't feel alone from people or the environment . But it definitely feels like a separate entity with everything else.

There's definitely a bit of a spiritual identity that's feeling left out. I hear people talk about oneness and connection and there's a belief that because I don't get that experientially, everything that's been clearing up lately has a doubt of "maybe i shouldn't trust my intuition to much. I haven't gone that deeply yet." Honestly, I didn't notice this until you ask. And when I don't compare, I can feel my breathing just lighten up right now.

Interesting that it involves an attempt to 'figure out'.

What if this just happens; the uncomfortable sensation / event and the appearance of an "I" that appears to struggle for a while and is then recognised as an appearance?

Would it be worse if there were no recognition, just a constant immersion in a story of 'self' ?
Jon

Then there'd be no need to feel disappointed at the spot I am and it hasn't stopped. I can just be gentle.

I like it better like this as when there's recognition, there's a sensation of some dizziness from the tightness of the body, and a gentle letting go that follows that just naturally doesn't wanna be this contracted.

Not part of the quote, but I've been in some externally intense situations the past few days and it looks like I can see "reaction," but it's not "me" reacting. I don't know what "reaction" is or where it comes from, but when I see it and don't feel like it's me, I don't react, yet things naturally kind of take care of themselves with no feeling of contraction. Doesn't even feel like it's "me" not reacting. Just kinda like a fly buzzing around with no reason that it's there other than it is. Like action without an origin where I could tell you why the body moved or spoke that way other than it just did so of its own accord.

And thanks for the wisdom, Jon.

[JonathanR]

. But it definitely feels like a separate entity with everything else.

This related to one of my questions. Is it really 'feeling'? Or is it at least partly a habitual assumption about 'being separate'? An assumption about a 'me' here and 'everything else' over there?

If you would like to look into this, what basis is there other than having been told 'youre in your body' and 'other things are external to that' for believing that what you really are is spatially located and restricted inside a container?

I apologise but I suddenly have to go out. I will reply to the rest of your post later today

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny,

To continue...

Theres a very good exercise that can help with this 'separation' ,which I'll let you know about once I've heard back from you. .

. I hear people talk about oneness and connection and there's a belief that because I don't get that experientially, everything that's been clearing up lately has a doubt...

Ok.Well people can and do use those sorts of words. Sometimes I wish that they wouldn't because those words can result in expectations that can't be fulfilled; not for a 'self' in any case. When we come to self-inquiry it's impossible to begin with to imagine no self as not being some sort of experience 'for me'. So imagination gets busy speculating about how good it'll be or what it must be like. It is good, but because it just IS rather than having to get experienced by an experiencer ' .We can look at this if you like?

All best

Jon

[Joutai]

This related to one of my questions. Is it really 'feeling'? Or is it at least partly a habitual assumption about 'being separate'? An assumption about a 'me' here and 'everything else' over there?

If you would like to look into this, what basis is there other than having been told 'youre in your body' and 'other things are external to that' for believing that what you really are is spatially located and restricted inside a container?

At the moment, it's seeming more like a thought. When the mind is quiet, it seems like I don't know how to answer the question and it feels like there isn't a way to answer the question, so the mind jumps it. When I don't believe the thoughts, I'm in a bit of a limbo zone where I'm not sure what's here. I'm not sure if it's disassociation, but there is definitely still energy and I can sense the body. Although I'm not even sure if sensation actually is in the body?

Theres a very good exercise that can help with this 'separation' ,which I'll let you know about once I've heard back from you.

It is good, but because it just IS rather than having to get experienced by an experiencer ' .We can look at this if you like?

I would love to! Thanks for the guidance.

[JonathanR]

. Theres a very good exercise that can help with this 'separation' ,which I'll let you know about once I've heard back from you.

Ok. This exercise assumes that when looking for a separate self one cannot be found. Certainty about this is not necessary, just the possibility that what had been thought to be "me" might be an illusion

Now, find time to go outside somewhere natural for a walk. The countryside, by the sea, even a park with trees and open green space will do.

Once there just notice what's going on, everything alive and somewhat energetic. The sky, weather, sun, clouds, grass, trees or water moving, reflecting. Sounds, smells, temperature. Insects, animals, people. Everything alive and going on around and also, notice any inner feelings, sensations, thoughts, breath.

Now, look for a line or edge where "I" ends and "everything else" begins.

What do you find?

. At the moment, it's seeming more like a thought. When the mind is quiet, it seems like I don't know how to answer the question and it feels like there isn't a way to answer the question, so the mind jumps it. When I don't believe the thoughts, I'm in a bit of a limbo zone where I'm not sure what's here. I'm not sure if it's disassociation, but there is definitely still energy and I can sense the body. Although I'm not even sure if sensation actually is in the body?

Good investigating! Yes, we are taught to believe that sensation is located inside a body but it's so interesting to look for ourselves at what the actual experience is like.

. It is good, but because it just IS rather than having to get experienced by an experiencer ' .We can look at this if you like?

This is very much connected but we can go into it in future posts.

Love

Jon

[Joutai]

Ok. This exercise assumes that when looking for a separate self one cannot be found. Certainty about this is not necessary, just the possibility that what had been thought to be "me" might be an illusion

Now, find time to go outside somewhere natural for a walk. The countryside, by the sea, even a park with trees and open green space will do.

Once there just notice what's going on, everything alive and somewhat energetic. The sky, weather, sun, clouds, grass, trees or water moving, reflecting. Sounds, smells, temperature. Insects, animals, people. Everything alive and going on around and also, notice any inner feelings, sensations, thoughts, breath.

Now, look for a line or edge where "I" ends and "everything else" begins.

What do you find?

I'm going to set some time to go by the lake on my days off. So give me a few days and hopefully I can return with what I noticed by Monday.

Thank you.