Looking for a guide.

[Empty Mirror]

Hi Ken

You're doing really well, and making some very clear discoveries, but you tend to ignore some questions that I ask and only answer certain ones. Please reply to all of them, even if they seem silly or repetitious.

thanks for the explanation. now i understand the question, and the answer.
there is no one or no thing, separate and discrete, that experiences anything. experiences cannot be claimed by anything. they just show up. so when the sentence beginning with "there is.." is completed, it expresses an experience happening independent of a singular entity.

Great! So are you clear that there is no "I" or any other entity that can claim any experience.

So is it clear that any fear, or curiosity, or exhilaration that shows up doesn't belong to anybody or anything?

that's why, or when, this "I" relaxes.

No, that is when your natural peace and freedom is noticed - when the "I" is seen through. There is no "I" to relax. There is only your natural peace and freedom to be realised when the it is seen that there is nobody and no thing to defend or blame - that thing was just a thought.

using the word "I" reinforces the notion that there is one.

But is there anything using the word "I"? And since you've seen that there is no thinker or believer, what is there to reinforce on what?

it's like dropping a pebble into a pond, and watch how it settles, and what ripples occur. sometimes exhilaration, or curiosity, or fear, or emptiness shows up.

And does any of that belong to anyone? Is there even anyone or anything dropping the pebble? :)

[kdvoren]

Sorry I haven't answered all your questions John.
How does the "quote" function work? It would be easier than copying and pasting.
Thanks
Ken

[Empty Mirror]

Hi Ken

Sorry I haven't answered all your questions John.
How does the "quote" function work? It would be easier than copying and pasting.
Thanks
Ken

On the rpost that you want to reply to, you press the "quote" button in the top right hand corner of the post.

You will see that any thing that I wrote will be enclosed by an opening square bracket like this [ then the word quote then an equal sign, then "Empty Mirror" (in quotation marks) then a closing square bracket like this ] at the start of the quoted words, then at the end you have the [ and then a forward slash / and the word quote again, and then a closing square bracket ]

[kdvoren]

Hi Ken

Sorry I haven't answered all your questions John.
How does the "quote" function work? It would be easier than copying and pasting.
Thanks
Ken

On the rpost that you want to reply to, you press the "quote" button in the top right hand corner of the post.

You will see that any thing that I wrote will be enclosed by an opening square bracket like this [ then the word quote then an equal sign, then "Empty Mirror" (in quotation marks) then a closing square bracket like this ] at the start of the quoted words, then at the end you have the [ and then a forward slash / and the word quote again, and then a closing square bracket ]

I don't know if this answers the question I had but didn't exactly ask. How do you quote me and then respond? Perhaps my response will show up like that.
Once I know that, I will go back and answer your questions.

[kdvoren]

Hi Ken

You're doing really well, and making some very clear discoveries, but you tend to ignore some questions that I ask and only answer certain ones. Please reply to all of them, even if they seem silly or repetitious.

thanks for the explanation. now i understand the question, and the answer.
there is no one or no thing, separate and discrete, that experiences anything. experiences cannot be claimed by anything. they just show up. so when the sentence beginning with "there is.." is completed, it expresses an experience happening independent of a singular entity.

Great! So are you clear that there is no "I" or any other entity that can claim any experience.
Yes.

So is it clear that any fear, or curiosity, or exhilaration that shows up doesn't belong to anybody or anything?
Yes.

that's why, or when, this "I" relaxes.

No, that is when your natural peace and freedom is noticed - when the "I" is seen through. There is no "I" to relax. There is only your natural peace and freedom to be realised when the it is seen that there is nobody and no thing to defend or blame - that thing was just a thought.
I understand.

using the word "I" reinforces the notion that there is one.

But is there anything using the word "I"?
No.

And since you've seen that there is no thinker or believer, what is there to reinforce on what?
Nada.

it's like dropping a pebble into a pond, and watch how it settles, and what ripples occur. sometimes exhilaration, or curiosity, or fear, or emptiness shows up.

And does any of that belong to anyone? Is there even anyone or anything dropping the pebble? :)

Nope.

Note: I responded to one other message of yours, though it doesn't belong to you.

[Empty Mirror]

Great! So are you clear that there is no "I" or any other entity that can claim any experience.

Yes.

Ok, so is there a separate self anywhere?

So is it clear that any fear, or curiosity, or exhilaration that shows up doesn't belong to anybody or anything?

Yes.

Are there any doubts about this?

using the word "I" reinforces the notion that there is one.

But is there anything using the word "I"?

No.

Do you have any doubts about this answer?

And since you've seen that there is no thinker or believer, what is there to reinforce on what?

Nada.

:)

Any doubts about this answer?

it's like dropping a pebble into a pond, and watch how it settles, and what ripples occur. sometimes exhilaration, or curiosity, or fear, or emptiness shows up.

And does any of that belong to anyone? Is there even anyone or anything dropping the pebble? :)

Nope.

Ok. Now I'm going to ask you to go back to the first page of this thread and read your post in which you described your expectations about this process, and tell me what is still missing please.

[kdvoren]

There is considerable frustration present.
All your questions were being answered and a message was received saying that a limit of 3 quotes could be imbedded (or something like that). But this is a good experience in not claiming an experience. The frustration felt, for awhile, that it belonged to me.
The first 3 questions will be answered, and then the next 3 and tomorrow the original expectations will be addressed.

[kdvoren]

More frustration present. There was care taken to only give 3 answers, and the same message appeared. Anger is appearing.

[Empty Mirror]

:)

Ok, just answer them one by one :)

And notice whether there is an "I" that is frustrated, or whether frustration is just showing up in this :)

[kdvoren]

:)

Ok, just answer them one by one :)

And notice whether there is an "I" that is frustrated, or whether frustration is just showing up in this :)

2 responses were sent. did you see the first one? more frustration is present.

[Empty Mirror]

LOL :D

No, I'm sorry i can't see any replies to any of my last questions, but I'm loving this exchange :D

[kdvoren]

I still don't know how to quote you, or me, and respond. There is frustration arising. Actually, it has already arisen, and is present, though it moves along more quickly, and effortlessly, if it's not owned by me.

The expectations are copied here, so a response can be given to your question.

"I want to be free from incessant thoughts. I want to be free from anxiety. I worry a lot. I want to be free of my need to control everything. I want to be more in the flow and accept what comes.
My expectations of IT have changed over time. I used to want everything to be perfect, be easy, be without stress. I thought IT was a constant blissful state. Now I'm seeing that as unrealistic, and a denial of my human self. I'm wanting some balance between my body/mind and a more conscious, aware self."

Thoughts come and go. "I" doesn't do anything, and is not the source of action, or experience.
Anxiety comes and goes.
Worrying happens.
If the "I" wants to be free, then that actually reconfirms the "I". Freedom is free.
There is a body, and there are thoughts, and there is awareness. It all appears in awareness, and maybe awareness does too, though it's not a thing, and nobody is witnessing.

Whenever the "I" is looked for, it is not found. This happens more immediately now, without struggle or effort.
Some quality of emptiness becomes present. This emptiness is sometimes rich and vibrant, sometimes flat. Emptiness is not empty at all. It's just not congested.

What's missing? Even though "I" is never found when sought, experience seems to constellate around the "I" whenever looking for it is not present. Probably an old habit. Curiosity arises.

[Empty Mirror]

Hi Ken

Sorry for the delay. I had a bit of an emergency over the weekend. You are doing great!

You're continuing the enquiry very well. You're doing exactly what is required, and staying true to direct evidence.

Ok, now let's look at what you mean by "experience seems to constellate around the "I".

I think I understand what you mean, and if it is what I think you mean then that is completely normal, but I need to hear your own explanation.

Please tell me what you mean by that.

[kdvoren]

A number of experiences indicate that an I is very much present:
My wife calls me "selfish" and I act with outrage. How dare she accuse me of that? "I" is insulted, hurt, angry.
I''m doing couple counseling, and the husband informs me that he will have individual counseling with another therapist to complement our joint sessions. "I" is hurt...why didn't he pick me for that. What's wrong with "me".
The stock market tanks. I am losing money. I"m afraid I'll run out, maybe be unable to pay my bills, maybe become homeless. What will happen to "me"?
I notice that pride and shame are extremely strong emotions, that arise with some frequency. They are based on the existence, or at least the supposition, of an "I".
All this is so, and what is also so, is that whenever I is looked for, it is never found. Only space and lightness and freedom.

[Empty Mirror]

Hi Ken

Sorry about my slow responses this week. I had a family emergency last weekend, and it's taken most of this week to resolve itself.

A number of experiences indicate that an I is very much present:
My wife calls me "selfish" and I act with outrage. How dare she accuse me of that? "I" is insulted, hurt, angry.
I''m doing couple counseling, and the husband informs me that he will have individual counseling with another therapist to complement our joint sessions. "I" is hurt...why didn't he pick me for that. What's wrong with "me".
The stock market tanks. I am losing money. I"m afraid I'll run out, maybe be unable to pay my bills, maybe become homeless. What will happen to "me"?
I notice that pride and shame are extremely strong emotions, that arise with some frequency. They are based on the existence, or at least the supposition, of an "I".
All this is so, and what is also so, is that whenever I is looked for, it is never found. Only space and lightness and freedom.

Ok, what you're describing is conditioned thinking and behaviour. And this has always been going on - and there has never been an "I" thinking or doing it. The idea that there is an "I" thinking things and doing things reinforces certain thoughts and reinforces certain behaviours. But notice that if you were referring purely to direct experience you would not have used all of those "I"s.

There is no "I" there to be hurt, insulted or angry. There are just emotions arising in response to thoughts but there is no thinker of those thoughts, and there is no "I" that those feelings belong to.

When you say "what will happen to "me"?", you've already seen that there is no "me" that anything can happen to. There are just thoughts showing up in 'this' that say that there is a "me" that something can happen to.

The more that it's noticed that is no "I" and there are no "others" in 'this', and the more that conditioned thoughts and behaviours are noticed, the more the thought-up centre (that thought has generated) is "seen through", so the conditioned reactions have no place to 'stick'.

When it's seen that the feelings of hurt and anger are just thought conditioned reactions based mainly on the idea that there is an "I" that is being 'hurt', or a "I" that is getting 'angry', the less 'hold' they have. There is no thinker of those thoughts. There are just thoughts, and emotions, and behaviours and people and PCs, and other 'stuff' showing up in "this".

You may have heard of people suddenly changing their behaviour when 'this' is 'seen', but it's very unusual actually. There is generally just a sense of surprise and relief, and then, over time, as the truth of direct experiential evidence becomes more and morenoticeable, and as the conditioning of beliefs and thought is noticed, there's a 'relaxation' into 'this'.

Perhaps you should take a couple of days to just notice the way that thoughts have conditioned themselves, and how behaviours are just conditioned reactions to those thoughts. Instead of trying to understand anything, just try to notice as much as possible how much of thought and behaviour is conditioned by other thought and behaviour.

Take very special notice of when there seem to be feelings of 'suffering' - like 'hurt' or feeling insulted, or 'shame', or 'guilt', or any other type of negative feeling - and try very hard to see what the ROOT source of that suffering is. Then please reply to me letting me know what the source of suffering seemed to be, and whether that source existed anywhere but in thought (which you have discovered you are not the thinker of).

Also please let me know whether the suffering is still there once it's seen that the root source of it is just a thought.