RaamS

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

But is there an experiencer of this?

Just as with sensations, when looking for the experiencer, it or he is not to be found.

However, there is an expectation that this is supposed to be understood at an even more fundamental level - a level to which I don't seem to have access, Jon.

For now, the understanding seems as plain as it probably did with the sensations.

With much love and regards,
Raam

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

However, there is an expectation that this is supposed to be understood at an even more fundamental level - a level to which I don't seem to have access, Jon.

I suppose that that was still coming from a perspective that there's an I that can make things happen.

For now all I'm able to do is to have just seen this much and to see if I can live at least from this place that an entity, I that feels experiences like frustration is not to be found.

Love,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hello Raam

. Just as with sensations, when looking for the experiencer, it or he is not to be found.

However, there is an expectation that this is supposed to be understood at an even more fundamental level - a level to which I don't seem to have access, Jon.

This can go on indefinitely.

. For now all I'm able to do is to have just seen this much and to see if I can live at least from this place that an entity, I that feels experiences like frustration is not to be found.

No. Although it's true, there is no entity, this would be an imagined "doer" "trying to do" this.

Life already "does" everything.

It's more about properly relaxing. Allowing expectations of "how it should be" to drop away. Trusting to the unknowable.

Is it possible to let expectations fall away?

Love

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

This can go on indefinitely.

This is one of my biggest fears, Jon. Makes me want to be for reassurance that awakening can indeed take place in this lifetime, and there's also some guilt of probably wasting your time.

Ever since you asked the following question some time ago, I took it perhaps a little too much to heart and got into the spiral of "trying" to "see beyond doubt", pressuring myself to see something:

It's one thing understanding this in theory and another to see it beyond doubt. Is this seen beyond doubt?

Really sorry about pulling you into this spiral with me. I do see it's a futile exercise to try to make something happen.

Life already "does" everything.

It's more about properly relaxing. Allowing expectations of "how it should be" to drop away. Trusting to the unknowable.

Right, Jon. Understood.

Is it possible to let expectations fall away?

Yes Jon, it feels possible. It's not like the expectations are helping anyway, just helping hold onto some beliefs and images.

I will tell you when answering your next questions as to whether they were without expectations.

Love,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Dear Raam

. This is one of my biggest fears, Jon. Makes me want to be for reassurance that awakening can indeed take place in this lifetime,

It can, for sure, though sometimes one can be so fixed on ideas of how that should be experienced that it is east to look straight past it .

. there's also some guilt of probably wasting your time.

Listen. I'm happy to try to assist you and it takes as long as it does, so don't worry about that. I don't feel that either of us are wasting time.

. I took it perhaps a little too much to heart and got into the spiral of "trying" to "see beyond doubt",

Ok. That would not be very helpful. The seeing beyond doubt cannot be "done" . Trying to do it would probably be exasperating, as there would still be the idea of a 'self, that's supposed to have to do it'.

Seeing that there's no self can be subtle. "It can't be this simple" people have sometimes said ,laughing. Laughing because it had been imagined to be impossible, difficult , lofty, vast , 'enlightenment' 'liberation'. All these ideas, this luggage., these labels.

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

It can, for sure, though sometimes one can be so fixed on ideas of how that should be experienced that it is east to look straight past it .

Thanks, Jon. I'll try to ensure to at least expose and share what my ideas look like as and when they feel related to the conversation and relevant to share.

Listen. I'm happy to try to assist you and it takes as long as it does, so don't worry about that. I don't feel that either of us are wasting time.

Really, thank you so much Jon. Extremely grateful for your time and support.

Ok. That would not be very helpful. The seeing beyond doubt cannot be "done" . Trying to do it would probably be exasperating, as there would still be the idea of a 'self, that's supposed to have to do it'.

Yeah, it was definitely exasperating. I'll just tell you what things are currently like, as sincerely as possible.

Is it possible to let expectations fall away?

One little point to add, related to this. There's a little fear somewhere as to whether I might lose interest in awakening and whether the fierce desire to realize might weaken if I slacken something somewhere. It comes from looking at how my interests in several fields/topics have been initially intense and slowly became less and less intense.

Awakening doesn't sound like a mere "interest", and there's no "other topic" of concern here that the mind might then chase after. In fact, the burning desire to awaken came up from the understanding that anything else in life is mental. This is only a desire to touch something more fundamental.

However, there is still a feeling that if I don't strike the iron when it's hot, I might lose a window of opportunity. This feeling of urgency fuels the desire to do my best to realize before I die - and each passing day feels like it might be a really nice day during which I didn't awaken.

It is clear that even the idea of "I really don't want to screw anything up in this journey" and the clinging to it arise from the idea of a me that can make things happen too, but I wanted to expose this fixation too, and to say that one of the reasons to hold onto some expectations. I will try to let this fall away too, like you said. Letting this fall away feels possible too, Jon.

Seeing that there's no self can be subtle. "It can't be this simple" people have sometimes said ,laughing. Laughing because it had been imagined to be impossible, difficult , lofty, vast , 'enlightenment' 'liberation'. All these ideas, this luggage., these labels.

:) it does sound very reassuring, Jon. Thanks!

With much love and regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hi Raam

. This feeling of urgency fuels the desire to do my best to realize before I die - and each passing day feels like it might be a really nice day during which I didn't awaken.

Urgency is often helpful in these conversations, or at least focus. Sincerity and earnestness too. I can tell that you bring all of these to your inquiry in abundance.

But this sense of urgency can border on desperation or fixation and can really fuel ideas about how no self must look, how it must be a special experience or else 'it isn't happening' or ' 'it isn't the spiritual climax expected, therefore it hasn't worked'. Some people are very surprised to discover that even though they start to clearly see that there is no self it appears that not much in their experience of life is changing.


For me there was a 'penny-dropping' moment in which it was seen that of course there had never been that fixed, separate entity, 'me' that had been believed to somehow 'exist' and 'suffer' This was not a particularly dramatic revelation . I had understood it as a theory but somehow, deeper down , had not taken it seriously.

So what changed? For me it was the shift from not really taking it seriously to appreciating as one might appreciate a work of art, or the night sky, or something that is really not just dead fact.

Love

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

Urgency is often helpful in these conversations, or at least focus. Sincerity and earnestness too. I can tell that you bring all of these to your inquiry in abundance.

Thanks.

But this sense of urgency can border on desperation or fixation and can really fuel ideas about how no self must look, how it must be a special experience or else 'it isn't happening' or ' 'it isn't the spiritual climax expected, therefore it hasn't worked'.

There are certainly thoughts that say it doesn't feel like it's happening, thoughts that say that I know for sure it hasn't happened yet.

For me there was a 'penny-dropping' moment in which it was seen that of course there had never been that fixed, separate entity, 'me' that had been believed to somehow 'exist' and 'suffer' This was not a particularly dramatic revelation . I had understood it as a theory but somehow, deeper down , had not taken it seriously.

So what changed? For me it was the shift from not really taking it seriously to appreciating as one might appreciate a work of art, or the night sky, or something that is really not just dead fact.

That's so beautiful, Jon, thank you so much for sharing how it happened with you. So it can be that subtle!

Makes me think of a conversation I had with one of my teachers, Teja Anand, on a comments section in Quora, until which there was some fear based on ideas such as "I would have to lose myself in this process" and "there would be no one left to experience anything". During that conversation I was made to understand, only intellectually or mentally, that I already don't exist - that I never existed in the first place. This just needed to be realized. The statement, "I never existed in the first place" brought about such a relief that I didn't have to get to some deeper state of losing myself. There was a lightness that came about that just stayed with me for a couple of days.

I often have some difficultly waking up early in the morning, but the next morning, the lightness was so profound that I just wondered, "If I don't even exist, where would there be a need to put up a fight to get out of bed, I'm not waking up". It was, for lack of a more descriptive articulation, just chill.

Somewhere, however, there was a feeling that this might be temporary, and I should just enjoy it while it lasted. There didn't seem to be much of a reason to make it stay, so I just lazed in the breeziness of this for the couple of days that it lasted.

The body was very much here, everything else was, I didn't feel that I wasn't the body or anything and there was nothing particularly noteworthy, so I didn't make much of it. I saw it as just a relief that I didn't have to amputate a part of my existence.

If it was to merely realize a deeper truth about what's already here, how terrifying could it be? It's already the case isn't it, so why did I have to fear a detail about it? After all, it wasn't going to become worse than this, so it was merely some relaxation accompanied by a deep peace.

I don't know if what I had was merely a mental relief, the kind that comes when you give up something that you were stressing yourself about, but it felt nice at the time. I am not chasing after the same feeling now because of the possibility that it was relief from some worry and that's not exactly a repeatable experience. Perhaps the ordinariness of now is more valuable than the relief someone feels after loosening something they'd gripped onto tightly.

I don't want to compare what I felt with what you describe here, what happened in my case was just a temporary feeling of relief and relaxation that just lasted a while. I only wanted to share it because this is perhaps the best understanding I have of a simple but slightly subtle experience. However, having hear what you said, I understand that realization can be extremely subtle, non-dramatic and extremely simple. I do understand that in my urgency and desperation to somehow realize, I might not pay attention to subtler aspects of now.

I don't know what exactly I can do about that except, perhaps, look at experience a little more patiently, and perhaps relax a little while maintaining the sincerity, earnestness and focus. Is this what I could be doing, or would you suggest something else, Jon?

I found your description so beautiful and do have some questions about your state subsequent to your shift, but I'm refraining from asking them, since my mind is capable of transforming even your most articulate descriptions into images and states to chase after.

Love,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hi Raam

. There are certainly thoughts that say it doesn't feel like it's happening, thoughts that say that I know for sure it hasn't happened yet.

This is THE problem. preconceptions.

How can it be predicted how no self will be experienced?

. it hasn't happened yet.

So what on earth are you talking about? A pot of gold at the end of a rainbow?

. For me it was the shift from not really taking it seriously to appreciating as one might appreciate a work of art, or the night sky, or something that is really not just dead fact.
That's so beautiful, Jon, thank you so much for sharing how it happened with you. So it can be that subtle!

The simplicity was in dropping all expectations and just seeing what would happen

. The statement, "I never existed in the first place" brought about such a relief that I didn't have to get to some deeper state of losing myself. There was a lightness that came about that just stayed with me for a couple of days.

Well that is really interesting Raam. So how about now? Does that statement resonate?

. the lightness was so profound that I just wondered, "If I don't even exist, where would there be a need to put up a fight to get out of bed, I'm not waking up". It was, for lack of a more descriptive articulation, just chill.

That articulates it well and I know what you're talking about.

. I didn't make much of it. I saw it as just a relief that I didn't have to amputate a part of my existence

Can you say more about what you mean?

. After all, it wasn't going to become worse than this, so it was merely some relaxation accompanied by a deep peace.

Merely? Are you serious?

. don't know what exactly I can do about that except, perhaps, look at experience a little more patiently, and perhaps relax a little while maintaining the sincerity, earnestness and focus. Is this what I could be doing, or would you suggest something else, Jon?

This is good. See what happens if you simply forget to remember those expectations.

Love

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

This is THE problem. preconceptions.

How can it be predicted how no self will be experienced?

Yeah Jon, I cannot say how it will be experienced. It will all just be ideas I have of something I haven't yet experienced.

So what on earth are you talking about? A pot of gold at the end of a rainbow?

I'm just sitting and desiring something that I don't know a thing about.

It's nothing but ideas of something I've heard and read of. I could go on and write a passage describing some aspects of it but I've already done that before, and they're still just ideas, Jon. I don't know what I'm desiring.

But the desire of that is what has brought me this far, and there's a fear that I might slacken, lose direction or even motivation in this journey if I let go of that desire. In one sense, I'm holding onto it dearly because I don't want to do something that might probably stop taking me towards it or take me away from it.

The simplicity was in dropping all expectations and just seeing what would happen

Right Jon, I realize that I should, too.

Well that is really interesting Raam. So how about now? Does that statement resonate?

Once the apprehension associated with losing a part of myself went away, it turned into just a mental statement - a conclusion that stays at the back of the mind. The "chill"ness sort of dissolved slowly over the next couple of days as I somehow intuitively knew it would. I had decided not to fight to keep it and to do full justice to it by staying in it while it lasted, so I didn't spend myself trying to hold onto it.

Today, it has just become a statement that the mind says "I know" about non-duality, and at best, is an understanding that's at the back of the mind when explaining some Vedantic concept to someone in a conversation.

I seem to have become immune to any effect the statement might have on me. I realized that it might be best to stick to enquiry and meditation, and to delay hearing or reading such foundational statements until I was a little more receptive, but I've already had too much of reading and listening. Also, even receptivity is a characteristic of mind/thought and shouldn't be a factor when it comes to awakening right?

I suppose it had an impact while I was realizing that I needn't worry, and subsequently there's just an ordinary, mundane neutrality about it. I would mentally agree with the statement, that's all.

That articulates it well and I know what you're talking about.

Right, Jon:)

. <I didn't make much of it. I saw it as just a relief that I didn't have to amputate a part of my existence.>
Can you say more about what you mean?

To be clear, I still don't know what self realization feels like. I've made up my mind to walk into it, whatever it turns out to be like, and to forgive myself even if I find it scary or uncomfortable.

Having had my initial exposure to ideas of self realization from traditional Hindu texts on Advaita and some limited understanding of the works of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, I carried this idea that it involved the destruction of a local self as a necessary step in the process. Even when I read the works of modern western teachers, there were statements like "I thought there would still be a self left to experience something until it happened" and like Adyashanti says (this isn't verbatim, I think I'm paraphrasing) "Enlightenment is a destructive process.. it is the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true", I was pretty worried about what it might feel like to have myself removed - even psychologically or spiritually and to readjust and realign whatever remained of myself to a deeper, more fundamental truth.

After this particular conversation with this person, Teja, the grip on that idea of a tangible, almost physical removal of an I from the current experience, loosened. I realized that the statement was not about removing what I am but about realizing that I already don't exist. That didn't seem to bad, because it's already true, and it's not particularly a problem.

Sure, I might realize that a lot of what I thought about myself and of reality might turn out to be false, but that's just understanding and assimilating truth, so it no longer seemed like something I had to worry about. An actual transmutation wasn't what was needed. I didn't have to have some affliction called the "ego" to be removed, but just needed to see that I already don't exist.

I could copy down screenshots of the conversation if you'd like. It's just on a comments section from Quora.

I still don't know what it's going to feel like, Jon, I understand that. I might still be wrong about what I understood from the conversation with Teja. It might still be psychologically hurtful or a relief, and I'm okay with what it turns out to be. I'd like to know the truth for what it actually is.

Merely? Are you serious?

That was poor communication from me, I guess, sorry. There was nothing inadequate about the peace or the relaxation, it was joyful and I felt nothing short of contented.

In addition to trying to express its simplicity, I suppose I also unnecessarily brought in some modesty in describing it, sort of reiterating that it was perhaps not much in comparison with the state you are in, particularly because it was a temporary experience.

This is good. See what happens if you simply forget to remember those expectations.

Yes Jon, will tell you what tha's like.

Love,
Raam

[JonathanR]

. Yeah Jon, I cannot say how it will be experienced. It will all just be ideas I have of something I haven't yet experienced.

Right.

But also, here you are! You are so certain that something must be an experience.

Is no self an experience?

We can speak or think of Impermanence or Change in terms of 'experience' but if you notice, things do tend to change, regardless of whether we pay much attention to that or not. What if no self is like this? Happening anyway?

. I carried this idea that it involved the destruction of a local self as a necessary step in the process.

It's important to get clear about this. Nothing is destroyed. The 'local self' cannot be found, is an illusion and therefore cannot be destroyed. Have you found one yet? It is unfortunate that language it's self creates such misunderstanding and can hold misunderstanding in place.

. Even when I read the works of modern western teachers, there were statements like "I thought there would still be a self left to experience something until it happened"

Again, language. This guy is talking about the APPEARANCE of a 'real self'. The APPEARANCE that one is destroyed. It's not that a real live self disappeared. Unfortunately that's how it looks from the quote. It makes different sense if it is allowed that there never was a 'local self' at all. Then , all he is talking about is that it was noticed that there really isn't one. This is staring us in the face when we take a look. Do we ever actually find such entity?

. Enlightenment is a destructive process.. it is the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true", I was pretty worried about what it might feel like to have myself removed - even psychologically or spiritually and to readjust and realign whatever remained of myself to a deeper, more fundamental truth.

Yes his language is dramatic here Does he mention the removal of a 'myself'? You interpreted it this way

. That was poor communication from me, I guess, sorry. There was nothing inadequate about the peace or the relaxation, it was joyful and I felt nothing short of contented.

In addition to trying to express its simplicity, I suppose I also unnecessarily brought in some modesty in describing it, sort of reiterating that it was perhaps not much in comparison with the state you are in, particularly because it was a temporary experience.

I'm in no particular state.

It looks like the chat with Teja was helpful. The feeling of peace actually sounds pretty good. But then the expectations of something 'more' , something dramatic and earth- shattering came in.

There is no self. I can point to that but I cannot confirm or point to a special experience that someone is going to have.


Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

But also, here you are! You are so certain that something must be an experience.

I don't know what to think of it or what to expect, Jon, but there's a wish to at least know if it has indeed happened. And I'm trying to stick to the bare minimum of markers for that, such as "it will be known beyond doubt" or "awakening confirms itself". But that brings about a constant evaluating mechanism within that comes up with a measuring roller going "do i have a fundamental realisation that's beyond doubt?"

Is no self an experience?

I don't think so, but I don't know, Jon. I suppose it's what's already true but not realized clearly enough here.

We can speak or think of Impermanence or Change in terms of 'experience' but if you notice, things do tend to change, regardless of whether we pay much attention to that or not. What if no self is like this? Happening anyway?

Sure, Jon.

Would that make the desire to recognise this thing that's "happening anyway" be a search for an experience? Is embarking upon such a search going to end up as a futile exercise, even if one is ready to see what the truth itself is, rather than have a concrete expectation?

It's important to get clear about this. Nothing is destroyed. The 'local self' cannot be found, is an illusion and therefore cannot be destroyed. Have you found one yet? It is unfortunate that language it's self creates such misunderstanding and can hold misunderstanding in place.

Yes, Jon. I haven't found a local self yet.

This part about there never having been a local self and it only needing to be realized got clarified to some extent with the conversation with Teja and much further, when you mentioned in one of your earlier posts that the illusion of I may continue to appear but it's about not believing in it anymore, it's not about "getting rid" of an I or ego.

Again, language. This guy is talking about the APPEARANCE of a 'real self'. The APPEARANCE that one is destroyed. It's not that a real live self disappeared. Unfortunately that's how it looks from the quote. It makes different sense if it is allowed that there never was a 'local self' at all. Then , all he is talking about is that it was noticed that there really isn't one.

Yes, Jon, I understand now that that's what he's saying. I only described a past conclusion to elaborate to you as to how it felt, but thank u u so much for making it extremely clear.

This is staring us in the face when we take a look. Do we ever actually find such entity?

I have definitely not been able to find such an entity, but why is it that that's not enough for me to be convinced that there isn't a self, Jon? It feels like the searching is authentic and very sincere, trying to leave no stone unturned.

Yes his language is dramatic here Does he mention the removal of a 'myself'? You interpreted it this way

Yes yes, Jon.

I'm in no particular state.

Right, Jon. Sorry.

There is no self. I can point to that but I cannot confirm or point to a special experience that someone is going to have.

Alright, Jon. I'll take what you point to, as what's necessary for me, and just share and expose any assumptions or expectations I find along the way.

It looks like the chat with Teja was helpful. The feeling of peace actually sounds pretty good. But then the expectations of something 'more' , something dramatic and earth- shattering came in

That was the reason, Jon? Not an intuitive feeling I had during the time it lasted that it was going to go away? I'm not sure of the reason for that, though. There were probably some expectations for "more". Something along the lines of "I don't think the body isn't me, though". I suppose you're right.

A note on expectations
When you asked "is no self an experience", I was tempted to repeat a learnt concept like "an experience is something that happens to a me, but this is a more fundamental shift at the level of what I take to be myself itself", but I'm not sure what that means anymore Jon.

If even the heavily scrutinized, chopped down and minimalized ways to know if I have indeed awakened or am moving towards it are gone, it's be great if awakening takes place. But what if it doesn't, and without these ways of verifying that it has happened, or an expectation to measure it against are not there?

How would I know then, that i should keep working towards it? What if a true letting go of explanation leaves behind a spiritually oblivious or worse, a spiritually agnostic person? What if, after that, I lose interest in realisation?

I could probably give an intellectual response to what I'm writing here, but this is the doubt that's there on an emotional level.

Sorry to sound like I've learnt nothing from out previous conversations, but I just wanted to share what feelings are being felt, Jon.

Love and regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hello Raam

It would be good to get beyond the forest of words, explanations and expectations.

See if it is possible to notice a gap between thoughts?

That's to say, after the present thought has gone but before the next thought appears.

Just notice any gap or space, however brief. Don't 'try' hard to do this . (That would not help). Let it happen or simply notice.

Love,

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

It would be good to get beyond the forest of words, explanations and expectations.

Sure.

See if it is possible to notice a gap between thoughts?

That's to say, after the present thought has gone but before the next thought appears.

Just notice any gap or space, however brief. Don't 'try' hard to do this . (That would not help). Let it happen or simply notice.

I did it a couple of times today I guess, Jon. Each time might've lasted a couple of seconds, perhaps slightly more, before some thought would seep in.

When looking at what goes on in between, it's just what is around at that time, definitely the present moment. Some perception - sight or touch or sound, or a combination of sensations of something in the vicinity, and the noticing of them.

I suppose I'll continue to do it a few more times whenever I remember to do so, in the next day or two.

I must say, that these questions are quite intriguing and there is an inclination to sit with these:

Is no self an experience? (...) What if no self is like this? Happening anyway?

I don't have an "answer" to give, but have spent some time on them, and would like to spend a little more as well.

In case there's something to report related to this, I will tell you Jon.

Thanks!

Love,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hello Raam

. I must say, that these questions are quite intriguing and there is an inclination to sit with these:

Is no self an experience? (...) What if no self is like this? Happening anyway?

I don't have an "answer" to give, but have spent some time on them, and would like to spend a little more as well.

Good.idea Raam.

As for looking for any gap between the last thought and the next , you could try this refinement:

Sit comfortably in a relaxed position but not going to sleep. Don't make any particular effort at all. Just leave things as they are. Eyes open a little or closed. You are not trying to meditate.

Without labouring to do so notice any sensations such as breathing , tingling , warmth. It may seem that relaxation is starting to take place and perhaps a feeling of peace or satisfaction. Don't grasp or reject.
It may be that silence is noticed or an impression of space. It may be that a feeling of clarity comes . If so just rest there without effort. Don't worry a jot if these don't happen.

No need to assume that whatever it is that notices this is based in the head. It could be interesting to see if there is any beginning or end to sensations that may appear.

At some point thoughts are likely to appear. Just let them. The moment they are seen they tend to liberate themselves. No need to get stuck on thought stories but likewise no need to reject them. Let them float by . Just seeing them is fine.


Let me know how you get on?

Love

Jon