On Revealing the True Nature That Has Been There All Along

[warissem]

Good morning

You are doing a good job. We think that we are a controller, a decision maker. Let'do this exercise to see what is happening.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Best for you

[freya]

Hi Warissem,

How is the movement controlled?

direct experience shows there is nothing that controls the movement. It just… happens.

Does a thought control it?

There seems to be an illusion here. There were some thoughts regarding the movement of the hand (like: move the hand faster) but none of them controlled the movement, actually. Even when there was a thought saying to make it faster, the hand moved in a smaller pace, for example.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I’m not so sure about this question… In the hand movement, there were no controller to be located. The other ones, maybe more observation is needed.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

There were no desicions that were made by thoughts. There are thoughts saying „flip your hand“ and there are also thoughts saying „I will do it now“ or „I won’t do it“, but these thoughts that “give commands” have no effect on the actions, suprisingly. Even more interesting, there is nothing that chooses. It just happens.

This “story of me” is still a bit confusing. What are they? This “I” thought is so integrated in it.

All the best
Jasmine


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[warissem]

Good evening

How does it feel to see that there is no you choosing things or making decisions?

This “story of me” is still a bit confusing.

Is there a you which is confused or is it just more thoughts about a thought "me"?

What are they? This “I” thought is so integrated in it.

What are you speaking about? Is it about stories?
To what is "i" thought integrated?

Is there still seeking?
If so what is expected to be found?

Best for you

[freya]

Good morning warissem,

How does it feel to see that there is no you choosing things or making decisions?

It feels in a way lighter. It’s as if a contraction is lifted. There are still thoughts about “I do this” or thoughts about the desire of being in control of all of it, but their frequency is much less compared to before.

Is there a you which is confused or is it just more thoughts about a thought "me"?

Yeah…it is more thoughts about a “me”. But there is this thought that regularly arises and maybe that is the only thing that causes seeking: the story of I.

Yes, these are just thoughts also but there seems to be a link in between what has happened and how this body react to things. And it is so hard to see that this link is also just a thought because there are “belief thoughts” attached to them. And these beliefs are strong (they appear high in frequency) .

To what is "i" thought integrated?

Just like any other thought, it is not integrated to anything. It just arises and then leaves, then another one arises and this goes on and on.

Is there still seeking?
If so what is expected to be found?

To the largest part, seeking is majorly gone. But there are still small thoughts of seeking that comes from time to time. For example, there was a seeking thought to find why there was sadness yesterday, because the belief that there is a cause and effect to thoughts (usually the thoughts about the story of I) and emotions is still arising. And it is so funny because it is clearly an effort to gain control that does not exist in the first place. But anyways, these are what have been arising, and sometimes these thoughts are entertaining also :)

Best for you


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[warissem]

Good morning

To the largest part, seeking is majorly gone.

Good. Have you seen that what is sought is already present before the seeking began?
Is it seen that there is no you seeking?

But there are still small thoughts of seeking that comes from time to time. For example, there was a seeking thought to find why there was sadness yesterday, because the belief that there is a cause and effect to thoughts (usually the thoughts about the story of I) and emotions is still arising.

Beliefs are also thoughts. Thoughts of I will continue to arise but you know for sure that there is no entity behind the I.
When there is sadness or whatever feeling, don't look for whys, just split apart the concept "sadness" and the raw sensations which are here. Look at the raw sensations instead of going to thought stories.

And it is so funny because it is clearly an effort to gain control that does not exist in the first place. But anyways, these are what have been arising, and sometimes these thoughts are entertaining also :)

It is already seen that thoughts are coming and going by themselves. Just let them come and go like clouds in the sky.

I invite you to go for a walk in nature and describe what is going on as direct experience :seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations. See how life is expressing itself.

Best for you

[freya]

Good morning Warissem;

Have you seen that what is sought is already present before the seeking began?

This is still a mystery, to be honest. When seeking is there, for example seeking a way to get rid of suffering, it is only clear that this is another thought and "suffering" is actually just a bunch of sensations that cannot even gather to make up this "suffering". But what is sought is nowhere to be found yet.

Is it seen that there is no you seeking?

Yes, and no. It comes and goes in glitches. Walking in nature, there is no "I" that can possibly seek at the first place. The idea of a separate self that seeks something is simply ridiculous. Then there comes social interactions, daily life, and the thought of I becomes pungent again without even noticing.

I invite you to go for a walk in nature and describe what is going on as direct experience :seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations. See how life is expressing itself.

Here is what is seen at a walk yesterday in nature:

1. Thoughts, sensations, and senses all happen at the same place. It seems that a thought follows a sensation, or vice versa but that is only a thought also. In reality, all happens at the same time (now) and at the same place.
2. There is no information whatsoever on what is going to happen next. Everything happens all by itself and independent of time. One moment, the attention is on the sounds of birds, another time it is on the thoughts, then on the falling leaf. What is paradoxical is that everything that seems like in order ("hearing of a bird"-"there is a thought"- "there is a falling leaf"--->illusion that it happens) all happens at the same time. So naturally, there is no way of knowing what is going to happen next.
3. The body cannot be separated from the environment, just like thoughts and sensations. These two concepts are only separated in language but without the environment (or the whole unit), there is no place for the thoughts and sensations to appear. All is seamless.

[warissem]

Hi Jasmine

You are doing a good job.

But what is sought is nowhere to be found yet.

Is there awareness of this sentence right now?
Are you aware of the seeking?
Just see that "being aware" is what is sought?

Yes, and no. It comes and goes in glitches. Walking in nature, there is no "I" that can possibly seek at the first place. The idea of a separate self that seeks something is simply ridiculous.

Good. How do you feel to see that?

Then there comes social interactions, daily life, and the thought of I becomes pungent again without even noticing.

Yes, this is due to habits and conditionings. "I" is a thought, recognize it as what it is.

About the walk in nature, I retain this

The body cannot be separated from the environment, just like thoughts and sensations. These two concepts are only separated in language but without the environment (or the whole unit), there is no place for the thoughts and sensations to appear. All is seamless.

Wonderful.

Is it seen for sure that there is no separate self in any shape or form?
Feel free to expose any lasting doubt about this stuff.

Best wishes

[freya]

Just see that "being aware" is what is sought.

This sentence has been very confusing for the past few days. Because seeking increases with increasing stress and all that arises is seeking a way to get rid of it.

Good. How do you feel to see that?

It is, in a way, indifferent. The labels put on sensations such as "good" and "bad" are no longer there. Although, it is hard to break the "I" habit, especially during busy days

Is it seen for sure that there is no separate self in any shape or form?
Feel free to expose any lasting doubt about this stuff.

It is seen that the self is just a thought. The only thing is, that the seeing sometimes disappears because of the "I" thoughts. And in the presence of these "I" thoughts, seeking begins, and this seeking thought always is about finding ways to get rid of suffering.


Best wishes

[warissem]

Good evening

This is an exercise to practice many times during a day then come back with what is going on.

Forget all you know about spirituality, enlightenment, advaita, or whatever. Don't go to thinking when you do it, stay in direct experience, eyes open.
There is a habit to say : I see, I hear, I walk, I speak, I do so and so. You agree with me that "what is done" can be known in direct experience (what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched or felt).

Exercice : sit down or lay down eyes open. Say loudly "I see". Repeat it 2 or 3 times to be familiar with the voice and discard any thinking. Then say "I" loudly and at the same time LOOK at the place from where the voice is coming (the gut, the chest, the mouth) and see what is there. Immediately say loudly "see" when you raise your head and see what is there.

Best for you

[freya]

Exercice : sit down or lay down eyes open. Say loudly "I see". Repeat it 2 or 3 times to be familiar with the voice and discard any thinking. Then say "I" loudly and at the same time LOOK at the place from where the voice is coming (the gut, the chest, the mouth) and see what is there. Immediately say loudly "see" when you raise your head and see what is there.

The thought of I shifts to the body, and any other sensation and thought remains as what they are, without the thought of I attached to it. Good exercise, good experience :)

There was a thing you said a couple of messages ago that was not clear at all. Today a thought about it arose.

You said: the thoughts are so overrated-by thoughts

That is the main thing that sense of self attached itself to. Thoughts about thoughts about thoughts… a never ending, bunch of thoughts. Not even sequentially because there can never be a sequence of thoughts (outside of saying “here is a sequence of thoughts)

The walks in nature seem to make “jasmine”, that has never been there, disappear. Especially with the self enquiry questions.

All the best
Jasmine


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[warissem]

Hi Jasmine

Glad to know that the exercise is helpful and have more clarity about this stuff.

Are you ready to answer to the final questions?

Best for you

[freya]

Hi Jasmine

Glad to know that the exercise is helpful and have more clarity about this stuff.

Are you ready to answer to the final questions?

Best for you

Hey warissem,
Yes! Please send :)


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[warissem]

Hi Jasmine

These are the final questions usually asked in this forum. Ponder on each question and elaborate on the answer.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you

[freya]

Hello warissem,

Sorry for being so late. There has been a lot of work to do and haven’t sat down to observe for a week now.

The answers will be ready on Sunday.

Bests,
Jasmine


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[warissem]

Good evening

Waiting for your insights

Best wishes