Looking for a guide

[Bluejay]

I did this on several occasions and oftentimes observed a subtle, but noticeable change of perception: the visual field widened, sometimes things felt kind of blurry and patchy, the visual periphery came more to the fore, and an overall feeling of heightened presence was palpable.
(I don't know whether this has to do with these exercises or the ongoing inquiry into control and doership, or if it is relevant at all, but today a lot of intense sensations came up with which I tried to just sit as long and undistractedly as possible...)

I have read a few times that as things relax there can be more of a focus on the periphery, more of a relaxed gaze, instead of a focused, 'looking for something' watching.

Excellent that you can sit with the sensations that come up. It's almost like a clearing of sorts happens from time to time, especially when there are shifts and changes.

So now we've looked at the emptiness aspect of things.

Let's look at how things depend on each other, and how emptiness and dependent origination go hand in hand.

Contemplate as you go about your day: What are all the conditions necessary for 'you' to make decisions, to be here, to think, and so on. Notice the conditions that propel you forward during the day.

Is there a separate self that stands apart from these conditions that is making choices, or is it simply conditions coming together that then lead to something happening?

It's a bit like planting a seed. It needs certain conditions like good soil, sunshine, water, and so on. None of these conditions alone 'cause' the seed to sprout and grow. They are simply conditions. You can also widen the conditions, such as existence itself being one, Earth, an atmosphere, the seed being planted, the sun being at the right distance from Earth, and so on.

Look also at the whole of life, how everything is interdependent, and how conditions come together. It's almost like everything is being lived by life.

Let me know if you have any questions!

[trp]

Notice the conditions that propel you forward during the day.

This pointer somehow clicked, as I got aware and consequently experienced much more that internal motivations such as emotional and behavioural patterns are essentially the same as outside conditions, and that, in turn, the seeming solid outside world is of the same ever-changing nature as thoughts and perceptions.

Is there a separate self that stands apart from these conditions that is making choices, or is it simply conditions coming together that then lead to something happening?

No, it's just conditions conditioning conditions and appearances happening.

Look also at the whole of life, how everything is interdependent, and how conditions come together. It's almost like everything is being lived by life.

This perspective led to some flashes of disorientation, especially when interacting with people in everyday situations, sensing that they are neither what I nor what they themselves think they are, and that we all don't live 'our' lives, but rather life is kind of lived through us.

[Bluejay]

This pointer somehow clicked, as I got aware and consequently experienced much more that internal motivations such as emotional and behavioural patterns are essentially the same as outside conditions, and that, in turn, the seeming solid outside world is of the same ever-changing nature as thoughts and perceptions.

Yup!

This perspective led to some flashes of disorientation, especially when interacting with people in everyday situations, sensing that they are neither what I nor what they themselves think they are, and that we all don't live 'our' lives, but rather life is kind of lived through us.

Exactly! It can be disorienting, but also a bit fun :)

Doesn't sound like you're doing this, but good to remember not reify 'life' as a thing. It's simply dependent origination, conditions happening. There is no source. So we can say life, God, Universe, but there are no such things. God doesn't have a face, but each face is the face of God, if we want to use that term.

Now seeing the how everything is interdependent, is it clearer that there is no inherent self 'there' doing, thinking, making things happen in life?

[Bluejay]

Another thing that popped up here is what you mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Something along the lines of:

Doubt and trust seem to be big issues for me on the path

Do you see doubt or trust the same way now?

What needs to be trusted in light of dependent origination and the empty nature of phenomena?

[trp]

Now seeing the how everything is interdependent is it clearer that there is no inherent self 'there' doing, thinking, making things happen in life?
Do you see doubt or trust the same way now?

It's definitely clearer, especially in respect to the doubt and trust issue (which funnily enough popped up here as well). Doubts are now not only intellectually understood as empty thoughts diverting from direct experience, but also more clearly felt as an interdependent phenomenon that doesn't need to be done anything about, in other words: it seems there has been some identification involved in looking into feelings (like "I do, or even: I have to do emotional work in order to become awake").

[Bluejay]

It's definitely clearer, especially in respect to the doubt and trust issue (which funnily enough popped up here as well). Doubts are now not only intellectually understood as empty thoughts diverting from direct experience, but also more clearly felt as an interdependent phenomenon that doesn't need to be done anything about, in other words: it seems there has been some identification involved in looking into feelings (like "I do, or even: I have to do emotional work in order to become awake").

That sounds excellent. There can still be a doubt thought and a sensation that comes with it, but it can quickly be seen through, which leads to it fading away. In time, it may become less and less.

Next pointer is the 'juice' of thoughts. Notice that almost every thought you have is giving you some juice in terms of feeling of security, control, avoiding something, propping up a sense of 'me'.

What I'd like you to experiment with is to first sit for 10-15 minutes and notice each thought as it begins to form. As it begins to form, you don't know what the content is yet. As it forms, I want you to let go of it, or surrender it to life, as if it's not your job to figure anything out.

Notice there is a feeling that comes with this surrendering / letting go.

Now focus on that feeling, and each thought that comes, surrender it to life immediately. When focused on the surrendering, the thought is secondary and disappears automatically.

And here's the challenge: Bring this to everyday life. Surrender each thought as it arises. You won't be able to do this 100%, but do your best and report back.

[trp]

And here's the challenge: Bring this to everyday life. Surrender each thought as it arises. You won't be able to do this 100%, but do your best and report back.

That’s indeed a big challenge. On the cushion, I’ve practiced it many times before, now mostly with the result of entering a vast, kind of neutrally alive space, but already reading your instruction to surrender each and every thought in daily life caused a strong fear reaction, so when trying to apply it, it became clearer that this fear of completely loosing control seems to underly everything (which interestingly led to a lot of inactivity since yesterday, even well-rehearsed habits like meditating or exercising lost their juice).

[Bluejay]

caused a strong fear reaction, so when trying to apply it, it became clearer that this fear of completely loosing control seems to underly everything (which interestingly led to a lot of inactivity since yesterday, even well-rehearsed habits like meditating or exercising lost their juice).

This is excellent. The next step always reveals itself like this. It seems like a monster, but it's actually a treasure. A dragon guarding the treasure.

Let's look at this completely losing control.

Who or what is in control in this very moment?

And in control of what exactly?

These contractions are empty threats, because they cannot be anything else.

This is also a good time to check out this meditation from Ilona on fear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX1llYtlKE

See if it resonates.

even well-rehearsed habits like meditating or exercising lost their juice).

Many things can fall away, because they were done not from a sense of joy and expansion, but from 'I need to do X because I want Y'.

[trp]

Many things can fall away, because they were done not from a sense of joy and expansion, but from 'I need to do X because I want Y'.

Absolutely, I've experienced that many times and thought I got used to it, but now it feels somehow different, questions arose like "What is there left to do?", "Is there anything to do at all?" or even "Has there ever been anything that could be done?", which all seem to point back to dropping the idea of doership.

Who or what is in control in this very moment?

And in control of what exactly?

When inquiring into it, it's obvious that there is nobody in control of anything, still there seems to be this underlying sensation which can feel at times like an intense tight knot in the lower belly.

This is also a good time to check out this meditation from Ilona on fear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX1llYtlKE

See if it resonates.

It sure did, evoking an energetic experience that had an inner-child or even archetypal quality to it.

[Bluejay]

"What is there left to do?", "Is there anything to do at all?" or even "Has there ever been anything that could be done?", which all seem to point back to dropping the idea of doership.

That's good. Also a reminder just in case: Doing and there being an agent are not the same thing. While there is no doer, doing still happens, and inquiry can happen, but it is simply 'life' happening through you.

The wind doesn't do anything. The planets don't do anything. The cells in your body don't independently do things. It all happens according to causes and conditions.

When inquiring into it, it's obvious that there is nobody in control of anything, still there seems to be this underlying sensation which can feel at times like an intense tight knot in the lower belly.

Oh yes. Adyashanti sometimes says that there's just this "No!" in the gut, resisting life itself.

Two ways to approach:

1) Does this knot belong to someone? Is someone affected by this? Does someone want this to go away?

2) See if there's actually a knot there, or if that's a label. Then simply drop the label. Feel the sensations there fully. Let them expand, move, do whatever. Welcome everything. You know the drill.

It sure did, evoking an energetic experience that had an inner-child or even archetypal quality to it.

That's great. The questions Ilona asks are very simple and can be used whenever to feel into any fear or resistance.

[trp]

Also a reminder just in case: Doing and there being an agent are not the same thing. While there is no doer, doing still happens, and inquiry can happen, but it is simply 'life' happening through you.

Yes, thanks for the reminder, that's clear even though questions arose what 'doing' even means when closely investigated (when does a 'doing event' start, when does it end, what is it made out of? etc.).

Two ways to approach:

1) Does this knot belong to someone? Is someone affected by this? Does someone want this to go away?

2) See if there's actually a knot there, or if that's a label. Then simply drop the label. Feel the sensations there fully. Let them expand, move, do whatever. Welcome everything. You know the drill.

I tried this approach (with other feelings, since the knot sensation hasn't resurfaced) as well as the approach from Ilona's meditation, and both seem to work, however sometimes there are confusing thoughts as to which way to go: disidentifying from thoughts and labels or somewhat stabilising them by almost personifying the feeling. Any suggestions how to go about this?

[Bluejay]

Yes, thanks for the reminder, that's clear even though questions arose what 'doing' even means when closely investigated (when does a 'doing event' start, when does it end, what is it made out of? etc.).

At some point, it's good to surrender all those questions, and just see, hear, feel, smell, taste.

There may be fear at first, but through fear is, well, you'll find out :)

I tried this approach (with other feelings, since the knot sensation hasn't resurfaced) as well as the approach from Ilona's meditation, and both seem to work, however sometimes there are confusing thoughts as to which way to go: disidentifying from thoughts and labels or somewhat stabilising them by almost personifying the feeling. Any suggestions how to go about this?

I don't see a problem here. Perhaps I'm not understanding the question. If so, feel free to rephrase.

Oh, maybe you're asking about Ilona's approach and just feeling everything? If so, notice that this need to know which way to go is a distraction from a feeling. Feel this feeling fully, and you may discover that there's no need to know where to go.

The path travels itself based on conditions. There's a naturalness that emerges. There may be contractions in the body that then thoughts try to distract from, but all that is needed is to feel.

Nothing needs to be forced.

Does this help?

[trp]

I don't see a problem here. Perhaps I'm not understanding the question. If so, feel free to rephrase.

Rereading it now, I don't really know what exactly the question was either :), but I can see that, indeed, there is a need to know tied into it, which, as all thought, is a distraction from a feeling. So just feeling, it seems, is really what it boils down to as practice at the moment (I recently heard it formulated as "Every thought is a cue to feel into what is", which really resonated).

The path travels itself based on conditions. There's a naturalness that emerges. There may be contractions in the body that then thoughts try to distract from, but all that is needed is to feel.

I can see this, and it seems that it plays out here often as a cyclic pattern of contraction and expansion (right now, after the last intense fear reaction, it feels more like a contraction phase including being more prone to thought distractions...).

[Bluejay]

Rereading it now, I don't really know what exactly the question was either :), but I can see that, indeed, there is a need to know tied into it, which, as all thought, is a distraction from a feeling. So just feeling, it seems, is really what it boils down to as practice at the moment (I recently heard it formulated as "Every thought is a cue to feel into what is", which really resonated).

Yup, that's a great way of putting it.

You can notice, in this instance, that thought is trying to predict/control the future by understanding what to do so that you get what you want. Something along those lines. There's this constant grasping and clinging to something.

I can see this, and it seems that it plays out here often as a cyclic pattern of contraction and expansion (right now, after the last intense fear reaction, it feels more like a contraction phase including being more prone to thought distractions...).

I would agree with that. Whatever comes up is exactly what is needed. Once that is integrated/processed, then the next thing emerges.

It can be easy to get stuck in an idea of what should be happening and then forcing a practice/meditation that isn't addressing what is arising now. Instead, it becomes a diversion away from 'this'.

I don't believe we've done this pointer, so let's do it now:

The aim of this pointer is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Enjoy! :)

[trp]

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

That was again a fun exercise, and a perfect follow-up of the hand-turning exercise, as it beautifully demonstrated that even seemingly different modes of choice making basically work in the same way: there's no separate choice maker experienceable, and it's just the 'I' thought that's the clown who takes the bow (as, I think, Jean Klein put it so aptly, cause it's really funny once you see it).