Exploration

[warissem]

Good morning

The image of 'me' or 'michael' is still very much here in experience.

Is it in direct experience or as thoughts?
It is normal that mental images and thoughts of me, memories of the past continue to arise.

It still feels like 'my' experience vs 'a' experience. Is this normal?

"my experience" is not a feeling (sensation + thought), it is a thought about "me". Is there a you as an experiencer in direct experience ?

When I pay very very close attention I see 'my experience' is a very very subtle idea and there is only experience (not my). But this hasn't sunk in fully. Will it? Does it need to?

There is no you to pay attention. Look at what you said above through direct experience and give comments.

I feel lighter, thinned out, less solid. I see Michael as an imaginary image a lot more often, but still forget. I see the fabrication and it's ability to seemingly solidify and grasp attention. I know when I analyse this fabrication, it is not pointing to a real thing. Things seem more like an unfolding and whimsical. More in touch with raw experience.

There is no you to be in touch with raw experience, there is only awareness of what is going on.

About decision and intention, the answers are not given through direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations). Look at direct experience then give the answers.

Doubt is still present.

Are you aware of these words on the screen? Is there a doubt of being aware?
Have you seen for sure that there is no you, no I, no separate self, no Michael which is aware?
If there is a big YES to both questions, where is doubt showing itself?

Best for you

[Misasc90]

Is it in direct experience or as thoughts?
It is normal that mental images and thoughts of me, memories of the past continue to arise.

Thoughts.

Ok, good to know.

"my experience" is not a feeling (sensation + thought), it is a thought about "me". Is there a you as an experiencer in direct experience ?

No 'me' in direct experience. But a strong sense of my experience persists if I'm being honest. Even when I see 'my experience' as a thought.

There is no you to pay attention. Look at what you said above through direct experience and give comments.

Correct. Attention just happens.

About decision and intention, the answers are not given through direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations). Look at direct experience then give the answers.

Decision - thoughts and feelings is all that a decision is

Intention - same as above

Seeing, hearing, etc seem irrelevant here. When specifically addressing decisions and intention.

OPIC REVIEW: EXPLORATION
Re: Exploration
Post by warissem » Tue Oct 17, 2023 9:02 am

Good morning
The image of 'me' or 'michael' is still very much here in experience.

Is it in direct experience or as thoughts?
It is normal that mental images and thoughts of me, memories of the past continue to arise.

It still feels like 'my' experience vs 'a' experience. Is this normal?
"my experience" is not a feeling (sensation + thought), it is a thought about "me". Is there a you as an experiencer in direct experience ?

When I pay very very close attention I see 'my experience' is a very very subtle idea and there is only experience (not my). But this hasn't sunk in fully. Will it? Does it need to?
There is no you to pay attention. Look at what you said above through direct experience and give comments.

I feel lighter, thinned out, less solid. I see Michael as an imaginary image a lot more often, but still forget. I see the fabrication and it's ability to seemingly solidify and grasp attention. I know when I analyse this fabrication, it is not pointing to a real thing. Things seem more like an unfolding and whimsical. More in touch with raw experience.
There is no you to be in touch with raw experience, there is only awareness of what is going on.

Are you aware of these words on the screen? Is there a doubt of being aware?

Yes. No.

Have you seen for sure that there is no you, no I, no separate self, no Michael which is aware?

Yes. I/separare self/Michael is an object in/to awareness and is insentient.

If there is a big YES to both questions, where is doubt showing itself?

Ahhhh. Just as an appearance which I don't need to identify with. The doubter is fiction.

[warissem]

Hi Michael

No 'me' in direct experience. But a strong sense of my experience persists if I'm being honest. Even when I see 'my experience' as a thought.

Here is an exercise about this sense of self :

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Best wishes

[Misasc90]

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

No location (but a mild 'here-ness')
No size or shape
No communication
No characteristics but a sense that it's a thing in my head or a firm sensations
Sense of self i know is not an image, sound, etc. But if im being honest it feels like a sensation in the body although I know that can't be it. For me therr os a very very very subtle sensation associated with self but not as solod or robust as before all these conversations

[warissem]

Hi Michael

You are familiar with vipassana. When you say :the sense of self feels like a sensation : split apart the raw sensation with the thought "sense of self" : what happens?

Is there a you seeing or seeing is just happening?
Is there a you hearing or hearing is just happening?
Is seeing = being aware, no separation?
Is hearing = being aware, no separation?

Best for you

[Misasc90]

I'm going to look at this a bit more and will get back tomorrow ☺️

[warissem]

Hi Michael

Take time for it.

Best wishes

[Misasc90]

You are familiar with vipassana. When you say :the sense of self feels like a sensation : split apart the raw sensation with the thought "sense of self" : what happens?

I see the thought /label doesn't need to be believed. Then only sensation remains.

Is there a you seeing or seeing is just happening?
Is there a you hearing or hearing is just happening?

No 'me'. Just seeing / hearing

Is seeing = being aware, no separation?
Is hearing = being aware, no separation?

Not sure what is being asked here. But there is only seeing , only hearing

[warissem]

Hi Michael

Is there still a doubt ?

Is there you to be clear or not clear about this stuff?

Is there you in any shape or form, was it ever?

Best for you

[Misasc90]

Is there still a doubt ?

I think I can say with some certainty there is no real entity called 'me'

Is there you to be clear or not clear about this stuff?

No. Whether a 'me' seems clear or not is more thought / imagery. I don't need to believe it to be me.

Is there you in any shape or form, was it ever?

No.


I want to clarify my understanding and please tell me if this is all there is to it. My doubt isn't about no 'me'. It's just wanting to make sure this is it. No more needed and some questions about next steps...

1. The imagery that I previously called 'me' is still there, but I see it as an idea, not representing anything or anyone real. Correct?

2. The words I, me, my, etc still appear. But I don't need to believe them to be true. Just labels which latch onto phenomena. This still happens, but I see that I, me, my are just words. Not 'me'. Correct?

Why I'm clarifying is that the labels and imagery all still occur, but now it's seen that identifying with them and believing them to be real was the issue. The fact they appear is fine.

3. Sometimes forgetting happens and the idea of 'me' is identified with. Does this diminish over time? I know I could ask 'who cares?' And in that moment ir is seen through. But curiousity is still here ☺️

Thanks

[warissem]

Hi Michael

I want to clarify my understanding and please tell me if this is all there is to it. My doubt isn't about no 'me'. It's just wanting to make sure this is it. No more needed and some questions about next steps...

it is not Your understanding, there is no you. Next steps are for a me, an I. Are you aware of the subtlety of these thoughts?

Yes, concepts of me still arise but they are not believed. They are seen just as concepts. There is still flip flopping due to old habits, tendencies and conditionings. I invite you to watch this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4

3. Sometimes forgetting happens and the idea of 'me' is identified with. Does this diminish over time? I know I could ask 'who cares?' And in that moment ir is seen through. But curiousity is still here

Do you forgot to be aware?

Best for you

[Misasc90]

some questions about next steps...
it is not Your understanding, there is no you. Next steps are for a me, an I. Are you aware of the subtlety of these thoughts?

I see. (No 'I', but language)

Do you forgot to be aware?

No

[warissem]

Good morning

If you feel ready and without any doubt about the illusion of a separate self, I invite you to answer again to the 6 previous questions through direct experience of right now. If you are not ready, let me know about any doubt.

Best for you

[Misasc90]

Which are the 6?

[warissem]

Hi Michael

When you are ready, these are the 6 final questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you