Looking for help.

[Dawid]

I need more time with this, I'll post tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
I'm writing this, just so you know that I'm thinking about it.

[nothinker]

Cool. Take your time, I don't mind.

[Dawid]

How does observing work?

When I look at something I'm aware that it's there. I'm not sure how to answer this question. When I look at the phone that's on my desk right now I'm just aware that it's there and of all of its characteristics.

What causes the awareness to move from one thing to another?

Stuff that happens. For example I'm writing this post right now and I hear some ambulance in the background, so awareness jumps to the noise that it makes. Or there's some feeling in the body and the awareness goes there.

Do you use some online communicator like MSN or something? If we were both online, I'd much prefer a more dynamic approach to this.

[nothinker]

How about Facebook? Make a post here https://www.facebook.com/groups/241097475942811/ about where you are in regard to this "no-self" thing. And uh, this isn't going to be one-on-one anymore, though. You're either through the Gate or really really close, so let's take some help and confirm this, unless you'd prefer to stay one-on-one. Tell me your Facebook name so I can find you.

When I look at something I'm aware that it's there. I'm not sure how to answer this question. When I look at the phone that's on my desk right now I'm just aware that it's there and of all of its characteristics.

Are "you" aware? Does awareness need a "you" to happen? Are you required at all for the process to work?

Stuff that happens. For example I'm writing this post right now and I hear some ambulance in the background, so awareness jumps to the noise that it makes. Or there's some feeling in the body and the awareness goes there.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! You are standing right on top of it. Keep poking it. Is this always true? Is there a point when something is not happening automatically, seemingly in response to thoughts and things that happened, but BY YOU, the separate free-will unit? What can YOU do? Are YOU there, at all, at all?

See ya on Facebook :)

[Dawid]

Hey, I prefer one on one so let's forget about Facebook. :)

Are "you" aware? Does awareness need a "you" to happen? Are you required at all for the process to work?

I can't say that I am aware. I'm looking at a bottle on my desk right now and there's just awareness of it.
Awareness exists and it doesn't need an I to function. Awareness doesn't need an extra component to be aware. It's like I can't fully grasp this.

What can YOU do? Are YOU there, at all, at all?

The only thing that comes to my head is that I can make decisions. For example "I'll move my hand now". But we talked about it earlier. How can I make the decision to move my hand? Decisions, plans are thoughts. I feel like I'm the one making decisions but these are just thoughts that pop into my head. My mind is blank, it's late here so I'm going to sleep. Thanks again for your help and patience.

[nothinker]

You say you can't fully grasp this, possibly because apart from when you are looking directly into the reality of no-self, you find yourself operating within the old confines. Most thoughts still presuppose that there is a self, and it sure as hell feels that way. Not to mention the apparent absurdity of decision making without a decision maker.

But hey look, any attempt to reorder perception to fit the map is futile. Layers and layers of wrong-knowing are built into our thought pattern, and they'll keep on triggering like pulses that inevitably follow a drop in the water. You might keep trying to interpret new data within the old paradigm, struggling to find a way to make it fit even though it's probably not going to.

Fuck that, I say. You have to reinvent the maps, challenge the thoughts that come up, no matter how unbreakable they seem, and let the leading edge of reality take the wheel. Figure out what is true. Not what you think, not what you feel like, but what is really true at this very moment.

I can't fully grasp this. How do you know that to be true?

Not think, KNOW.

I can make decisions. How do you know that to be true?

Not think, KNOW.

Can you find you in any shape or form in reality? Don't just answer me. The correct answer means nothing. Your looking and seeing it is what we are reaching for. Is this always true, like ALWAYS? There is no you, literally, ever. Could it be?

Give a long rant about this the next time you post. Just spill it out, let it flow, no editing.

[Dawid]

I can't fully grasp this. How do you know that to be true?

I don't know for sure if that's true. I have some expectations in my mind (how liberation should look) and if these expectations are not the same as reality then I think I cant grasp it. However the " I can't grasp it" is just a thought.

I can make decisions.

I dont know what to answer because we talked about it already. I just feel like there's some I thats making decisions however that makes no sense because many decisions happen automatically and that would mean there's no I to control ANY decisions. If there was some I it would control all decisions not just some.

Can you find you in any shape or form in reality?

I cant find an I in reality. Theres a body, thoughts, emotions etc. but nothing that can be called I can be found. I cant point a finger at something and say "THIS IS I". If I point a finger at my body and say "this is ME" it feels not true.

Is this always true, like ALWAYS?

um yea, if theres no I now then it never was and it never will be.


Could it be?

I cant see any reason for the I to exist. there is no need for I to make decisions if brain is responsible for this.


I know you wanted a big rant about this but I really dont know what to write. I thought/looked/whatever at this "no you" thing for months, I think about it every day and I really dont know what else can I say. I cant find anything that can be called I. Its not in the body, its not around the body. where could it be? could it be something that exists but is not visible? could be, but if so what would be its function? to make decisions? how these decisions would be made? how would it PUT thoughts into the brain?

if the I doesnt exist then it means that 99% people believe that they have some choice, that they do stuff and the fact is that everything just happens. we think we do this and that and the fact is that people just live. everything happens and theres no I to have control over it. I want to feel this, I want to be 100% sure that theres no I. as of now I fucking feel like theres some I even though everything tells me its not here. If I knew in my bones that theres no I then I would be able to live more freely, there would be no struggle because how can there be struggle if everything just happens. fuck, help me solve this.

[nothinker]

I want to feel this, I want to be 100% sure that theres no I.

Then look. There is no you. That's 100% true, all the time, regardless of what you may think or feel.

Listen. We indulge in the content of thought. That's what we do, and it's inevitable so long as we wish to function in civilization.

But on that level, the level of thought, there's just thought, thought, thought, and all of them are equal. There's the idea of a pink unicorn. There's the idea of a horse. There's the idea of an I. They are all ideas, and you never know when any of these ideas would tie in with a thought that pops up in the mind, right?

It's common enough to hear people say, "I didn't say hi to that woman because I wouldn't know what to say next." or "If I don't do that, I would never be happy again."

As if it is known. As if it is obviously true.

It is not. Looking honestly at what's going on will show you that it's just a thought. Just an idea. Not an inch truer than the idea that there's an invisible pink unicorn standing behind you.

Truth exists. Untruth doesn't.

You don't know what your next thought is going to be. You don't even know how you are going to feel an hour from now.

Why? Because the thing that tells you you do know, the thing that tells you there is a "you" who know things?

That's a thought. Fleeting. Groundless. Untrue.

Now I can't make you 100% sure that there is no I, because the thing that tells you you are not sure is the mind, and the only distinction it can perceive is the distinction between one idea and another. But liberation isn't about grasping an idea, is it?

It's about looking at what is true in reality, and truth exists. Whether the next thought that comes up tell you you have seen it, or that there must be something else you haven't seen because this isn't as big as you expected it to be, is irrelevant.

You either see that the idea of a you has no basis in reality, or you don't. And from what you wrote, you certainly seem to have seen it.

What's bothering you then, is doubt. So let's turn on the light. Who is doubting?

Are you behaving like you always has? Is it your conditioning/habit to be skeptical, always wanting to be sure before committing to anything?

How does doubt arises, exactly. I want you to be alert for this. Watch when there is no doubt, and then when there is doubt. What came in? What has changed? Did you do it?

[Dawid]

What you said about not knowing what the next thought will be etc. sounds true to me.
I don't know shit, I can just guess how I'm going to feel etc. but I can't be sure.
Also I see that the idea of an I doesn't have any basis in reality. Like, I can't find
a single thing that would show me that there is a self.

I think you're right about doubt. I just want to be sure that I get it.
I dont want to think "this is it" while it's not.

who's doubting?

there's just doubt..

Are you behaving like you always has?

Yea, almost. from time to time I have this knowing that I'm not here and everything
is just happening. It's like really short insights from time to time. Sometimes few times
a day, sometimes once every 2 days etc.

Is it your conditioning/habit to be skeptical, always wanting to be sure before committing to anything?

I think I am skeptical by nature, guess that's what brought me here.

As for the "how does doubt arise". I dont do it, just thoughts appear that say
maybe it's not it, maybe its not true. When I have these short insights it's like "shit it
looks so true but it's so weird that its almost unreal".

[nothinker]

To be frank I'm a little lost as to what to do right now. We seem to be at a similar place: looked at the idea of self, saw that it has no reality, double-checked it to death but still occasionally doubting whether we have seen all that need to be seen.

Tell you what, I'll be off for a while to work on an assignment, and then I'll come back with what I got. You do the same, and come back with what you got.

Take a look at the idea of perceiver, perceived and perception and try to define all 3 independently.

Take a look at what perceives the perceiver.

[Dawid]

Hey. Its been a couple of days, nothing changed here. I just came to a conclusion that trying to escape suffering would mean trying to escape being human. I dont know if Im right but it seems right to me.

english is not my first language so it might be hard to describe such things like perception etc.

perception is the process of being aware of something.

perceived is the thing that Im aware of.

perceiver is what does the perceiving, in this case I dont know what it is.


What perceives the perceiver? The same thing that perceives everything else.

[nothinker]

You seem disappointed. I wish I could tell you there's more, but that's all there is to liberation. This isn't about escaping suffering; it's about releasing humanity from the delusion that is responsible for so much needless suffering, so that all that's left is life, living for itself.

Not in the service of an image, but authentic desires. Love. Honesty. Passion. Humanity. Isn't that a better deal? See for yourself.

[nothinker]

One more thing I need to ask you.

Earlier I asked you whether you were behaving like you always have, and you answered:

Yea, almost. from time to time I have this knowing that I'm not here and everything is just happening. It's like really short insights from time to time. Sometimes few times a day, sometimes once every 2 days etc.

How do you perceive an I in the phases when it is not clear?

When you find yourself in that state of knowing that you are not there and everything is just happening, look clearly.

How are you perceiving an I?

[nothinker]

It's been a while. Are you still there?

[Dawid]

Im still here. I wasn't posting anything because Im not even sure if you see this whole thing and you know what you're talking about. Sometimes it looks like you just accepted it as another belief that doesnt change shit. I dont feel like Im getting anywhere, that's why I didnt post.

How am I perceiving an I?

I dont get it. Theres just a feeling that theres something doing everything, something that chooses thoughts etc. Its like, I think that thoughts, emotions etc. come from some source and that source is called I.