Diving into direct experience

[Bluejay]

I remember I had this some years ago haha. I was pushing all my sadness as far away as possible until it just did not work anymore. Then when I accepted the sadness (by accident) suddenly there were all these sadness-related feelings from my childhood coming up. Pretty insane just how much is pushed down over the course of a life. Took me about two years to process it, but now I actually like feeling sad (it just never really happens anymore). I always thought that the same thing would happen for fear and anger but that really took some time to get started. It feels like the acceptance process of fear and anxiety has only recently really started.

That sounds good!

It does seem like the body 'system' treats heavier emotions as dangerous in some way, so they are pushed far away.

By the way, I was trying to figure out what the components of the ‘self’ in my head actually were and I noticed this very abstract thought that kind of had the form of some kind of a helmet that seemed to pop up every time it seemed there was a self. This thought really gives off the impression that the rest of the sensations happen outside of the helmet, while other thoughts happen inside the helmet. Then I noticed that the sense of self (in the form of the helmet) really does not have to be synonymous with what I really am. But it just feels like what I really am hides in any kid of sensation that appears and I can not stop that from happening nor can I make it happen. As if ‘that which I really am’ (whatever that is) shapeshifts into the sensation I’m currently looking at. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but just felt like letting you know.

The important thing is to keep inquiring into each thing that comes up.

Deconstruct the helmet into direct experience. For example, the helmet is an image/thought. Is that thought the self?

The self cannot hide in a sensation because it isn't there in the first place. So there may be a sense of a self, then you look at this sense/sensations, and inquire into that.

There will be all kinds of thoughts about what the self is until there's one that catches 'your' attention, then that is what the system goes with to distract you.

Feel free to share more about this if you want to explore (i.e. what does it feel like the self is).

I always thought that the same thing would happen for fear and anger but that really took some time to get started. It feels like the acceptance process of fear and anxiety has only recently really started.

Seeing through the illusion of self should help quite a bit with anxiety, because if you can't predict your thoughts or attention, or what you're going to say, then how can other people do that? They can't control what they think of you or what they will do. So if you can't control what you will say or how you will look, what is the anxiety?

Really inquiring into control can help with anxiety.

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

Deconstruct the helmet into direct experience. For example, the helmet is an image/thought. Is that thought the self?

The ‘helmet’ in this case is only a thought/image. It is not the self, but I mistook it for the self.

The self cannot hide in a sensation because it isn't there in the first place. So there may be a sense of a self, then you look at this sense/sensations, and inquire into that.

I know that is supposed to be the case, but it seems like the sense of self pops up in every sensation that I feel. It confuses me, because I don’t understand how to truly separate it from the actual sensation. I think there is some kind of thought mixed in with the sensations still that makes it seem like the sense of self is in the sensation, but that is an assumption.

Feel free to share more about this if you want to explore (i.e. what does it feel like the self is).

I find myself just going like: ‘Is this me?’, ‘no’, ‘is this me?’, ‘no’, ‘is this me?’, ‘no’, for every sensation that appears. And I think I am kind of expecting there to be some point where I am not going to say that anymore, but I’m never getting there. So every time during this process it seems like I’m not the sensation, but then some new sensation is always going to appear in which it once again feels like I’m the sensation.

Also, when I find a sensation to not be ‘me’, it kind of gets a different flavor to it. As if the sensation is no longer happening at my very core, but slightly outside of that. I don’t know if that is supposed to be the case or if I’m imagining that (I don’t think I am), but this is what it seems like. I use this ‘distance’ (not really the right word, but I can’t think of any other word) to find out which sensations still seem to be ‘me’ and which sensations do not seem to be ‘me’.

I find that more and more of the sensations (for example some of the face sensations) are happening at a ‘distance’, but there are always new ‘deeper’ sensations that come in their place and still appear to be ‘me’ and therefore it seems like I’m feeding apples to a dead horse. I know this is just a thought, but I still wanted to mention it.

Seeing through the illusion of self should help quite a bit with anxiety, because if you can't predict your thoughts or attention, or what you're going to say, then how can other people do that? They can't control what they think of you or what they will do. So if you can't control what you will say or how you will look, what is the anxiety?

I see, that makes sense. Because then the anxiety really is just a feeling and not bound to any action anymore.

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

I see, that makes sense. Because then the anxiety really is just a feeling and not bound to any action anymore.

Yes, and remember, you need to explore this yourself to see it in action, because your a-ha/insights will often be different.

And often the anxiety is hiding something else underneath, such as sadness. For example, you might be anxious because you want to avoid looking bad, and if you look bad, no one will like you and you will be alone, and then there will be sadness.

I find myself just going like: ‘Is this me?’, ‘no’, ‘is this me?’, ‘no’, ‘is this me?’, ‘no’, for every sensation that appears. And I think I am kind of expecting there to be some point where I am not going to say that anymore, but I’m never getting there. So every time during this process it seems like I’m not the sensation, but then some new sensation is always going to appear in which it once again feels like I’m the sensation.

If the 'no' is a thought, then that is just doing the inquiry in thinking. Thoughts will always tell you that you're almost there, or just a few steps.

When you ask 'is this me?' don't go to thought for the answer, instead stay and look/listen, like you would if you were in the forest bird watching. Silently just looking.

Any answer in thought is just a distraction.

And the quicker you ask and answer these questions, the more likely that you are caught in thinking. See it as a meditation, where you ask, and then you spend time looking.

Also, when I find a sensation to not be ‘me’, it kind of gets a different flavor to it. As if the sensation is no longer happening at my very core, but slightly outside of that. I don’t know if that is supposed to be the case or if I’m imagining that (I don’t think I am), but this is what it seems like. I use this ‘distance’ (not really the right word, but I can’t think of any other word) to find out which sensations still seem to be ‘me’ and which sensations do not seem to be ‘me’.

To me this sounds off, but I could be wrong. It might be an image/thought you're seeing. The thought might be making the conclusion that 'Okay, if this sensation is not me, then I'm here, and the sensation is over there'. Do you notice anything like this?

I find that more and more of the sensations (for example some of the face sensations) are happening at a ‘distance’, but there are always new ‘deeper’ sensations that come in their place and still appear to be ‘me’ and therefore it seems like I’m feeding apples to a dead horse. I know this is just a thought, but I still wanted to mention it.

No, this is good. Often when people say 'it's just a thought' it means that there is something there, but there is a wanting to bypass it intellectually. What we care about is what is there.

With that said, notice that this is also a story that 'there are always deeper sensations' and 'I'm feeding apples to a dead horse', so these are the next things to inquire into.

I'd also recommend you start doing inquiry a few times per day, just 10-15 minutes is enough to keep the focus high.

Now, the sensations that seem to be 'me', how do you know they are 'me'? What are the components that make it me when it comes to direct experience (see, hear, feel, taste, smell) + thought.

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

Yes, and remember, you need to explore this yourself to see it in action, because your a-ha/insights will often be different. And often the anxiety is hiding something else underneath, such as sadness. For example, you might be anxious because you want to avoid looking bad, and if you look bad, no one will like you and you will be alone, and then there will be sadness.

Yes, I understand! I’m just going to write down some stuff about what seem to be the underlying feelings. The exact details of it may not be important, but writing them down helps with feeling them, so I might as well send them to you as well. I’m not a hundred percent sure, but for now it seems like the underlying feelings are mainly fear and boredom. The fear feelings are accompanied by thoughts that revolve around not being able to function in the world by myself, because I’m ‘different’ and don’t understand the rest of the world. The boredom feelings are often accompanied by thoughts revolving around the idea that I cannot do nothing for another minute. These feelings seem insignificant maybe, but they are quite intense sometimes. These two types of feelings are probably intertwined as well. For example, I really struggle with doing things I don’t enjoy. During doing these things there are constant thoughts like: ‘I cannot keep doing this, I have to stop’ or ‘let’s just do something else for a few seconds’ etc. Then after that there are thoughts like: ‘Oh, if I already struggle with this simple task, how am I supposed to deal with the world later on in life.’. The first part is the boredom part and the second is the fear part. Also there are maybe even deeper feelings underneath the feelings that I have described right now, but I have not been able to really put them into words yet.

If the 'no' is a thought, then that is just doing the inquiry in thinking. Thoughts will always tell you that you're almost there, or just a few steps. When you ask 'is this me?' don't go to thought for the answer, instead stay and look/listen, like you would if you were in the forest bird watching. Silently just looking. Any answer in thought is just a distraction. And the quicker you ask and answer these questions, the more likely that you are caught in thinking. See it as a meditation, where you ask, and then you spend time looking.

I am fairly certain that I am actually looking at the sensations instead of doing the inquiry in thinking. However, I might not be looking deep enough, that could very well be true. Just to explain, when I was looking at the ‘helmet’ I watched it appear then kept looking at it asking the question ‘is this me?’, ‘is this me?’, ‘is this me?’. Then at some point after a few seconds the ‘helmet’ really starts to feel like it is not me but just a bunch of sensations. This recognition is often followed by some thought like: ‘see, the helmet is not me’ or something like that. At which point I often move on to the next sensation that has appeared. Not that I’m waiting for the thought to appear or something like that, but maybe I am listening to the thought, as if it is some kind of confirmation to move on? I am fairly certain though that the initial few seconds looking is ‘staring’ directly at the sensation and not based in thought. Then I repeat this for I don’t know how many sensations until there is this thought like: ‘Do I have to keep doing this, its never going to stop…’. After which often intense anxiety feelings arise and then I look at those feelings and when they disappear I stop looking at the sensations and move on with my day (I don’t know why I stop).

To me this sounds off, but I could be wrong. It might be an image/thought you're seeing. The thought might be making the conclusion that 'Okay, if this sensation is not me, then I'm here, and the sensation is over there'. Do you notice anything like this?

Hmm, its probably an image of some kind. I will try to explain as well as I can, but its pretty hard to put into words. So for example, during larger parts of the day I am not aware of my face sensations (in my cheeks, tongue, lips, forehead, etc). However, then at some point I become aware of the sensations where it seems like they happen in a certain location (this is maybe an image in my head?) in the field of sensations. The face sensations for example seem closer to ‘me’ than the visual field and are more centered than for example the ‘sound’ sensations. Therefore, whenever these sensations have a location it seems like they are not happening to ‘me’ anymore, but rather just happening in the field of sensations. I hope this makes more sense, let me know if it doesn’t.

No, this is good. Often when people say 'it's just a thought' it means that there is something there, but there is a wanting to bypass it intellectually. What we care about is what is there. With that said, notice that this is also a story that 'there are always deeper sensations' and 'I'm feeding apples to a dead horse', so these are the next things to inquire into.

Yes exactly! I will inquire into these further. The first one seems to lead to some feelings revolving around feeling inferior to others because of me not being able to find these ‘deeper’ sensations. Also, there is some fear accompanied by thoughts like: ‘What if I’m never able to feel these sensations to their core, I won’t be able to deal with life if that’s the case.’ The feelings revolving around the second one are probably related to the feelings in the first one. Maybe some more sadness-related feelings and thoughts like: ‘This is never going to work, I’m wasting my time, I’ll never be able to feel these deeper sensations anyway, so why bother.’

I'd also recommend you start doing inquiry a few times per day, just 10-15 minutes is enough to keep the focus high. Now, the sensations that seem to be 'me', how do you know they are 'me'? What are the components that make it me when it comes to direct experience (see, hear, feel, taste, smell) + thought.

Okay! The things that seem to be ‘me’ feel different from the things that are clearly not ‘me’. They have a different flavor to them. Upon further investigation this flavor is often found to be some body sensations that just happened to appear alongside the initial sensation. The components that make a thing ‘me’ are therefore the body sensations and then the thoughts place this sense of ‘me’ in the context of other things. With sensations it is different. No sensation feels like it is ‘me’ when I feel them. It is when the sensation are tangled up and seem to be things together that there starts to form a picture of ‘me’ and ‘others’. At least, that is what seems like to me right now.

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

The fear feelings are accompanied by thoughts that revolve around not being able to function in the world by myself, because I’m ‘different’ and don’t understand the rest of the world.

Notice the assumptions here:

- The thought of the future is taken as real
- Thought can predict what's going to happen
- Label 'I'm different' is taken as real and judged as bad
- There is a need to understand the world
- It is possibly to understand the world
- All this is referring back to a me
- The me is in danger

The boredom feelings are often accompanied by thoughts revolving around the idea that I cannot do nothing for another minute. These feelings seem insignificant maybe, but they are quite intense sometimes.

When this happens next time, can you experiment with sitting with the feeling another minute? If thought says you cannot sit another minute, go: 'Let's see'.

I am fairly certain that I am actually looking at the sensations instead of doing the inquiry in thinking. However, I might not be looking deep enough, that could very well be true. Just to explain, when I was looking at the ‘helmet’ I watched it appear then kept looking at it asking the question ‘is this me?’, ‘is this me?’, ‘is this me?’. Then at some point after a few seconds the ‘helmet’ really starts to feel like it is not me but just a bunch of sensations. This recognition is often followed by some thought like: ‘see, the helmet is not me’ or something like that.

This sounds good. When the thought comes saying 'helmet is not me', that is a distraction. Instead of going to that thought, rest in not finding a me, keep looking, keep staying in that space.

If it's uncomfortable, that's a good sign, stay there. Look for a me in discomfort. This is how you go 'deeper'.

Then I repeat this for I don’t know how many sensations until there is this thought like: ‘Do I have to keep doing this, its never going to stop…’. After which often intense anxiety feelings arise and then I look at those feelings and when they disappear I stop looking at the sensations and move on with my day (I don’t know why I stop).

That seems like a good place to stop if you want to stop. Just feeling the anxiety or inquire into 'where is the danger' and who the anxiety belongs to, so you just keep on going.

Therefore, whenever these sensations have a location it seems like they are not happening to ‘me’ anymore, but rather just happening in the field of sensations. I hope this makes more sense, let me know if it doesn’t.

So when they don't have a location, they feel more like happening to 'me'? How is this known? What are the elements that tell you they are happening to 'you'?

Also, there is some fear accompanied by thoughts like: ‘What if I’m never able to feel these sensations to their core, I won’t be able to deal with life if that’s the case.’ The feelings revolving around the second one are probably related to the feelings in the first one. Maybe some more sadness-related feelings and thoughts like: ‘This is never going to work, I’m wasting my time, I’ll never be able to feel these deeper sensations anyway, so why bother.’

You know, I had similar thoughts for years. Eventually I just went: 'If this never works, so be it. If I end up homeless, fine. If no one ends up liking me, okay. If I die, then I die.'

This seems to be a natural process when this pattern exhausts itself.

Now some questions on this:

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you control if you are able to feel sensations a certain way?

Can you know what is needed to get somewhere, and even if you did, can you make yourself get there?

Do these kind of thoughts have any effect on reality? What is their value, except as a protection mechanism from feeling?

Okay! The things that seem to be ‘me’ feel different from the things that are clearly not ‘me’. They have a different flavor to them. Upon further investigation this flavor is often found to be some body sensations that just happened to appear alongside the initial sensation. The components that make a thing ‘me’ are therefore the body sensations and then the thoughts place this sense of ‘me’ in the context of other things. With sensations it is different. No sensation feels like it is ‘me’ when I feel them. It is when the sensation are tangled up and seem to be things together that there starts to form a picture of ‘me’ and ‘others’. At least, that is what seems like to me right now.

Yes, the 'me' is created when two or more building blocks are put together.

The way to inquire into this is to separate them constantly, even during the day. If there is a sensation that feels like me, you simply go:

Sensation in chest (or wherever they are) = Is the me these sensations?
Thought words saying this is me = Is this thought me?

This is very simple. It can even be done without words, just looking like it sounds you're already doing. Eventually it may become single-pointed where this process happens 'automatically' almost the whole day.

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri, sorry for the late post, it took me several hours to reply to all the questions. I’m constantly re-writing the answers to the questions.

Notice the assumptions here:
- The thought of the future is taken as real
- Thought can predict what's going to happen
- Label 'I'm different' is taken as real and judged as bad
- There is a need to understand the world
- It is possibly to understand the world
- All this is referring back to a me
- The me is in danger

Yes I see most of these assumptions at least at some level. The fear feeling and boredom feeling currently seem to be the most prevalent feelings when it feels like there is a ‘me’. In other words, when it seems that there is a ‘me’, these feelings are often present as well. I was also wondering, every time the ‘self’ pops up it is accompanied by a body sensation at the center of my throat. This sensation almost seems to be involved in every ‘thing’. So for example, if I think of something hard that I’m going to have to do tomorrow this feeling pops up (along with some other body sensations) and it seems like I’m in danger as you put it. However, when the body sensations are felt, their emotional charge and the sense that there is an ‘I’ that is in danger disappears. For every ‘thing’ that seems real (whether it is physical or some future event) this particular throat sensation is involved. When we were talking previously about the ‘sense of self’ I never really had a good idea of it looked like and I thought that maybe it just took many forms. However, now I was wondering if the ’sense of self’ in our context is maybe just a singular sensation that makes it seem like there are ’things’ when there aren’t. I’m not completely sure, but to be honest it really feels like this is the case, since the idea that there is a ‘thing’ always disappears as soon as that particular sensation is felt.

When this happens next time, can you experiment with sitting with the feeling another minute? If thought says you cannot sit another minute, go: 'Let's see'.

Yes, I try to do this as often as I can, just to feel what it is like. It is often accompanied by thoughts like: ‘Oh no what if I have to do this forever.’ or ‘I can not sit for another minute, I have to do something else right now’. However, when I just keep feeling the sensation these thoughts disappear and the emotional charge of the boredom feeling eventually disappears too.

This sounds good. When the thought comes saying 'helmet is not me', that is a distraction. Instead of going to that thought, rest in not finding a me, keep looking, keep staying in that space. If it's uncomfortable, that's a good sign, stay there. Look for a me in discomfort. This is how you go 'deeper'.

Yes, I think I understand what you are talking about. I think the thought ‘the helmet is not me’ is a very sneaky defense mechanism to not feel the feeling. I just have to rest even in the feelings that arise with those kinds of thoughts and not be distracted by any of them.

So when they don't have a location, they feel more like happening to 'me'? How is this known? What are the elements that tell you they are happening to 'you'?

Hmm, the more I look at it the less sense my previous answer makes. I’ll try to explain the answer I initially wrote and then point out the issues I now have with it. So, when a sensation appears it seems to be that it has a certain position in the sensory field (not in the world, but in the field in which all sensations appear). For most sensations, this position is really close to what seems to be the center of my sensory field. Since I’m aware of these sensations (and their positions within the sensory field) and feel them separately from other sensations I know that they are not ‘me’. However, when sensations get tangled and seem like ‘things’ it seems like they are ‘me’. Therefore, I assumed that when a sensation has a position that must mean I’m aware of it, which would mean it is not ‘me’. There are several assumptions here:
1 – I assume there is fixed frame of reference which allows me to assign a position to a sensation, however this fixed frame of reference might not be there and is mostly likely based on thoughts about the dimensions of the world (for example, the throat sensation always seems to happen ‘inside’ the throat because the throat sensation is often accompanied by a thought that places it in the throat.)
2 – I assume that the sensory field has an up, down, left, right and center and has boundaries in these dimensions. However, I have never found these boundaries. The whole set up is three-dimensional and is therefore most likely based on thought.
3 – I assume that sensations can have positions, which would make these sensations a ‘thing’, which in itself means that the sensations are no longer pure sensation, but rather a tangle of sensation and thought about their position compared to other sensations.

You know, I had similar thoughts for years. Eventually I just went: 'If this never works, so be it. If I end up homeless, fine. If no one ends up liking me, okay. If I die, then I die.' This seems to be a natural process when this pattern exhausts itself. Now some questions on this:
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you control if you are able to feel sensations a certain way?
Can you know what is needed to get somewhere, and even if you did, can you make yourself get there?
Do these kind of thoughts have any effect on reality? What is their value, except as a protection mechanism from feeling?

Actually, ending up homeless has been a fear of mine for quite some time as well. It is one of the toughest ones to accept currently, but I know it is going to have to happen eventually haha. As for the questions: I can not predict my next thought. I can not control the way I feel sensations, I either feel the sensation or I don’t. I can think about what is needed to get somewhere and imagine myself going there, but I can not know what is needed to get somewhere. I also can not make myself get there. The content of these thoughts only has any meaning/effect in the world of ‘things’, it has no bearing on reality right now (which is the feeling of sensations in the present moment).

~ Jaïr

[Bluejay]

I’m constantly re-writing the answers to the questions.

Why? :)

Let it be messy.

However, now I was wondering if the ’sense of self’ in our context is maybe just a singular sensation that makes it seem like there are ’things’ when there aren’t. I’m not completely sure, but to be honest it really feels like this is the case, since the idea that there is a ‘thing’ always disappears as soon as that particular sensation is felt.

It's not too important to pinpoint what is what. The important thing is to look.

So let's focus on this throat sensation. Separate it into its building blocks. How is the sense of self with the throat sensation created?

There's a thought? Is there an image, or words?
There's a sensation. Any sounds, smells, tastes?

Yes, I try to do this as often as I can, just to feel what it is like. It is often accompanied by thoughts like: ‘Oh no what if I have to do this forever.’ or ‘I can not sit for another minute, I have to do something else right now’. However, when I just keep feeling the sensation these thoughts disappear and the emotional charge of the boredom feeling eventually disappears too.

Great!

There is no such thing as permanence, so when zoomed in on sensations, you'll notice they are alive. When a label like 'boredom' is believed, it seems static.

Yes, I think I understand what you are talking about. I think the thought ‘the helmet is not me’ is a very sneaky defense mechanism to not feel the feeling. I just have to rest even in the feelings that arise with those kinds of thoughts and not be distracted by any of them.

A good reminder might be: Don't believe any thought, don't land in any thought content. In thoughts the floor is hot lava.

Since I’m aware of these sensations (and their positions within the sensory field) and feel them separately from other sensations I know that they are not ‘me’. However, when sensations get tangled and seem like ‘things’ it seems like they are ‘me’. Therefore, I assumed that when a sensation has a position that must mean I’m aware of it, which would mean it is not ‘me’. There are several assumptions here:
1 – I assume there is fixed frame of reference which allows me to assign a position to a sensation, however this fixed frame of reference might not be there and is mostly likely based on thoughts about the dimensions of the world (for example, the throat sensation always seems to happen ‘inside’ the throat because the throat sensation is often accompanied by a thought that places it in the throat.)
2 – I assume that the sensory field has an up, down, left, right and center and has boundaries in these dimensions. However, I have never found these boundaries. The whole set up is three-dimensional and is therefore most likely based on thought.
3 – I assume that sensations can have positions, which would make these sensations a ‘thing’, which in itself means that the sensations are no longer pure sensation, but rather a tangle of sensation and thought about their position compared to other sensations.

Look closer at the frame of reference. What is being referred to? Is it a thought/image?

Also, can you look at how sensations become tangled and tell me what the building blocks are that make this possible?

It's good to assume that when you close your eyes, any location is a thought. It's a bit like when you close your eyes and imagine something far away. It may feel far away, but it's right in your face. It only feels far away because of size, maybe it looks dimmer, and a thought says so.

For example, take two objects where you are. One that is 1 meter away from you and one that is maybe 3-5 meters. Look at them, notice the distance between them. Now hold them in mind and close your eyes. Where is distance in direct experience? What tells you one is 1 meter away and one is 3-5 meters away?

I can think about what is needed to get somewhere and imagine myself going there, but I can not know what is needed to get somewhere. I also can not make myself get there. The content of these thoughts only has any meaning/effect in the world of ‘things’, it has no bearing on reality right now (which is the feeling of sensations in the present moment).

Can 'you' think about what is needed to get somewhere, or do those thoughts simply appear?

When you say the thoughts have an effect in the world of 'things', what do you mean?

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

Just a quick message in between. Tomorrow I will finish up the answers to all the questions. But I wanted to let you know that I had a big realisation yesterday. I was watching a video where people were talking about thoughts and then someone mentioned that thoughts are just reflections of what is happening in the body. And I just suddenly understood that every thought can be traced back to its origin. It is happening constantly now, with every thought, even the thoughts regarding this process. And when they are traced back (which happens within a fraction of a second) they are just completely gone immediately. Its like poof poof poof poof poof poof poof. I also feel very relieved but I don't understand why or how. I don't know, I just wanted to let you know.

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

That sounds great. Thoughts are indeed just reflections, like the moon reflected in a lake.

Don't try to understand anything, just rest in the feeling of it, or however you wish to say it. Enjoy :)

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

So, the past few days everything settled down a bit. I now see that most of the thoughts that appear are definitely not me and just appear as a reflection of some body sensation. For example, there may be some kind of throat sensation and then quickly after that there is a thought like 'Oh no, what will people think about me if I do this'. When the thought is traced back to the initial sensation, the sensation does not disappear but the confusion around the sensation and the thought disappears. Thoughts only seem to be 'mine' when it is unclear what the initial sensation is that they reflect. Otherwise, thoughts are just thoughts and they reflect feelings that are in the body somewhere.

By the way, I think I may have had a similar realisation almost a year ago. I was doing homework on the computer and really wanted to stop and felt like I couldn't continue and then suddenly realised that I don't have to listen to the thoughts that are telling me to stop. Back then there was also this recognition that there was feeling underlying every thought. However, I did not see then that the thought always appears as a reflection of the feeling. And so within a couple weeks it all reverted back to listening to thoughts again because I didn't really understand it yet.

There are still some thoughts that have not been traced back yet, so maybe the inquiry can focus on those thoughts? The thoughts that are not traced back are the thoughts about this very process. The thoughts about thoughts so to speak. Such thoughts still seem to be 'mine'. I suspect they might trace back to some kind of general feeling of discomfort that represents the fear of not being good enough and trying to do something about it. Maybe it is a feeling I have been to afraid to look at until now? I'm not sure. Do you have any questions or pointers that relate to this?

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

Otherwise, thoughts are just thoughts and they reflect feelings that are in the body somewhere.

Or thoughts reflect knowledge/other thoughts.

I was doing homework on the computer and really wanted to stop and felt like I couldn't continue and then suddenly realised that I don't have to listen to the thoughts that are telling me to stop.

Yes, thoughts can be completely ignored. They don't say anything about anything.

There are still some thoughts that have not been traced back yet, so maybe the inquiry can focus on those thoughts? The thoughts that are not traced back are the thoughts about this very process. The thoughts about thoughts so to speak. Such thoughts still seem to be 'mine'. I suspect they might trace back to some kind of general feeling of discomfort that represents the fear of not being good enough and trying to do something about it. Maybe it is a feeling I have been to afraid to look at until now? I'm not sure. Do you have any questions or pointers that relate to this?

I would point you to looking at the feeling of mine instead of focusing on thoughts. However, like I mentioned above, thoughts can reflect other thoughts. So thoughts about thoughts would be reflecting a thought.

What is it that makes a thought yours?

Don't answer from thought. Instead remember the 5 physical senses + thought. How is a 'mine' thought created? What is needed? Sensation? Thought? Smell? Taste? Sound?

Also thoughts about thoughts; is there a belief that there's a thinker of thoughts?

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

I would point you to looking at the feeling of mine instead of focusing on thoughts. However, like I mentioned above, thoughts can reflect other thoughts. So thoughts about thoughts would be reflecting a thought. What is it that makes a thought yours? Don't answer from thought. Instead remember the 5 physical senses + thought. How is a 'mine' thought created? What is needed? Sensation? Thought? Smell? Taste? Sound?

The situation always seems to be the following: There is a thought, it is not traced back to its source sensation, there is this cramp-like sensation in my throat. In this situation it feels like the thoughts are 'mine'. However, if there is a thought and it is traced back to its source sensation then it seems like the thought is not 'mine'. So, the 'mine' feeling I would say is the throat sensation that always seems to pop up when there is confusion regarding the origin sensation of the thought. A thought seems to be 'mine' when there's confusion about the origin sensation of the thought. So for a mine thought to be created all that is necessary is the thought itself and the body sensation (throat) that pops up when the thought is not traced back to its initial body sensation.

Also thoughts about thoughts; is there a belief that there's a thinker of thoughts?

Well, similarly to the above, the 'there is a thinker of thoughts' thought only appears after confusion about the origin sensation of an initial thought. As if it trying to find an explanation for why there does not have to be confusion even if the origin sensation of the initial thought is not known. When there is no confusion there is no 'thinker of thoughts' thought and thus no belief in a thinker of thought. At least that is what it seems like right now.

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

So, the 'mine' feeling I would say is the throat sensation that always seems to pop up when there is confusion regarding the origin sensation of the thought. A thought seems to be 'mine' when there's confusion about the origin sensation of the thought. So for a mine thought to be created all that is necessary is the thought itself and the body sensation (throat) that pops up when the thought is not traced back to its initial body sensation.

Okay, good. There seems to be an expectation that a thought needs to be traced back to a source for it not to be mine.

There's no need for anything. Everything that is here is here already without a self, and it's all good.

So look at the thought itself, is that the self/mine?
The body sensations in the throat, is that the self/mine? Do these sensations know anything about 'mine'?

Is there anything here except one thought and then sensation?

Well, similarly to the above, the 'there is a thinker of thoughts' thought only appears after confusion about the origin sensation of an initial thought. As if it trying to find an explanation for why there does not have to be confusion even if the origin sensation of the initial thought is not known. When there is no confusion there is no 'thinker of thoughts' thought and thus no belief in a thinker of thought. At least that is what it seems like right now.

Look at the confusion. Where in that is there a thinker?

There is confusion, which is one thought with a label, but can you a thinker outside of this thought that is thinking thought that is itself not another thought?

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

Sorry for the long break, I have been ridiculously busy the past two weeks. Now I finally have some time to reply again.

So look at the thought itself, is that the self/mine?
The body sensations in the throat, is that the self/mine? Do these sensations know anything about 'mine'?
Is there anything here except one thought and then sensation?

The thought is not mine, the body sensations in the throat are not mine. The sensations don't know anything about 'mine'. And there is nothing here except thought and then sensation. Thoughts only seem to be 'mine' if either the thought or body sensation is not recognized to be exactly that, a thought and a sensation. Previously, I used to look for a thought or sensation that felt like 'mine', so that I could recognize that it was a thought/sensation and be convinced that 'mine' (or the self) did not exist. However, every thought and every sensation is just a thought and a sensation and not a standalone 'thing'. I thus don't know what 'mine' feels like, because there is no sensation or thought associated with 'mine' anymore. Every sensation is simply felt to be a sensation and every thought is traced back to these sensations. 'Mine' therefore only seems to appear when a thought is not recognized as a thought (but instead as a standalone 'thing' which has inherent qualities). When a thought is a thought 'mine' does not appear. So the confusion about the thought is what makes it seem like the 'mine' appears. And when it appears there is this thought like: 'Hey, the 'mine' appeared, that's weird, what thought/sensation have I misinterpreted?'. And then this thought is immediately recognized as a thought and the 'mine' vanishes.

The trace-back is also not a mental trace-back. Its more like a recognition of the origin of the thought. Its like body sensation (sensation #1) then thought (with sensation #1 as origin) then the same body sensation (sensation #2) again immediately. Instead of body sensation (sensation #1) then thought (with sensation #1 as origin) then confusion (body sensation #2) then more thought (with sensation #2 as origin) then more confusion (sensation #3) etc. Its like the loop is closed instead of it being open all the time if that makes any sense. Also, I'm not doing the closing of the loop, it just closes by itself now.

So now whenever there is any thought like: 'Oh, am I still imagining myself to be separate from my thoughts?', its exactly that thought not being recognized as a thought that seems to indicate that there is separation. When the thought is just simply the thought there is nothing beyond thought and sensation. Everything beyond thought and sensation is imagined and thus simply another thought.

There is confusion, which is one thought with a label, but can you a thinker outside of this thought that is thinking thought that is itself not another thought?

Asking this question in thought and then not recognizing that it is indeed a thought is what creates the belief that there is a thinker in the first place.

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

Sorry for the long break, I have been ridiculously busy the past two weeks. Now I finally have some time to reply again.

Welcome back :)

I thus don't know what 'mine' feels like, because there is no sensation or thought associated with 'mine' anymore. Every sensation is simply felt to be a sensation and every thought is traced back to these sensations.

This is a great insight. It's emptiness in Buddhist terms.

Meaning, if you look at a pen, does a 'pen' exist, or is it just ink, plastic, etc? (even the parts are empty of self-nature or essence).

90sec video on emptiness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYqaWmc4OGA

So the confusion about the thought is what makes it seem like the 'mine' appears. And when it appears there is this thought like: 'Hey, the 'mine' appeared, that's weird, what thought/sensation have I misinterpreted?'. And then this thought is immediately recognized as a thought and the 'mine' vanishes.

Understood, this sounds good!

The trace-back is also not a mental trace-back. Its more like a recognition of the origin of the thought. Its like body sensation (sensation #1) then thought (with sensation #1 as origin) then the same body sensation (sensation #2) again immediately. Instead of body sensation (sensation #1) then thought (with sensation #1 as origin) then confusion (body sensation #2) then more thought (with sensation #2 as origin) then more confusion (sensation #3) etc. Its like the loop is closed instead of it being open all the time if that makes any sense. Also, I'm not doing the closing of the loop, it just closes by itself now.

This is quite similar to self-inquiry (who am I? who thinks? before thought, who am I?).

Only thing you may want to look at are the origins and connections. Instead of tracing back a thought to a sensation, for example, notice where the thought is coming from. So asking Who thinks this thought? Who am I?

Trust your intuition on this though. If you resonate with what you're doing, keep doing that, and I'll do my best to help.

I offer the above suggestion since you mentioned confusion, and the confusion may simply be because there's not always a connection. In fact, at some point you may start feeling like sensations and thoughts are not connected.

So now whenever there is any thought like: 'Oh, am I still imagining myself to be separate from my thoughts?', its exactly that thought not being recognized as a thought that seems to indicate that there is separation. When the thought is just simply the thought there is nothing beyond thought and sensation. Everything beyond thought and sensation is imagined and thus simply another thought.

Yes, excellent catch. The thoughts get 'subtler' as you inquire more.