Exploration

[warissem]

Good morning

Great job, glad to read how you describe the lie, the illusion.
How do you feel to see that?

Is seeking still happening?

Can you say with a big fat YES that there is no separate self, never was and never will be?

Best for you

[Misasc90]

How do you feel to see that?

I feel like I have known this for sometime... So doesn't feel any different. I still have doubt as to whether I really get it. I understand the doubter is more thought-form that's being identified with, but that doesn't seem to help.

Is seeking still happening?

Yes.
When not paid attention to it feels as though a 'me' wants to 'get it'. I see that as a concept which is halting the process.

Can you say with a big fat YES that there is no separate self, never was and never will be?

Yes, but identity with the fabrication it is still happening.

[warissem]

Good morning

I feel like I have known this for sometime... So doesn't feel any different.

There is no difference because a separate self was never here in the first place, it is only a belief.

I still have doubt as to whether I really get it. I understand the doubter is more thought-form that's being identified with, but that doesn't seem to help.

Yes, doubting are thoughts.

Is seeking still happening?

Yes.

What do you expect to happen to end seeking? Be clear and go deep in your answer.

When not paid attention to it feels as though a 'me' wants to 'get it'. I see that as a concept which is halting the process.

Can you be more specific about "what to get"? Can you give a full description of "what to get"?

Yes, but identity with the fabrication it is still happening.

What is identity with the fabrication in direct experience?

Best for you

[Misasc90]

What do you expect to happen to end seeking? Be clear and go deep in your answer.

It still feels like something needs to happen. Something in which I can then say "oh... It's done, there is nothing more to do". Or there is the expectation that I'll never get identified with the phantom-I again. Or that "I am done". I know the one who says 'I am done' is more belief. I understand that if there is an 'I' who says 'I am done' then it is not done. But there is a wanting to claim it. There is the belief there will be certainty and conviction - absolutely no doubt or uncertainty, yet uncertainty is very much still present. There is the assumption that I'll never believe myself to be a separate self ever again, but that is not happening.

It boils down to the fact that there is still a strong sense of 'there is more. I'm being dishonest with myself if I claim it's done'. I know that that's a belief or a me-story, but I think that's the obstacle. 'This can't be it' is stopping me from owning it up.

Can you be more specific about "what to get"? Can you give a full description of "what to get"?

That I am not a separate self. But to know it viscerally beyond doubt. Although I see clearly at times that what I always take myself to be is a holographic mind image that isn't a real separate entity, but rather a fabrication... I still doubt if it's fully seen through. The one who doubts it, is the onstacle because as the doubter I'm obviously not seeing it.

Getting it is believed to be zero doubt and zero identification. This isn't the case. So I conclude I don't get it.

What is identity with the fabrication in direct experience?

Not seeing thought form as thought form. Being lost in / as the holographic mind-image.

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, there are doubtful thoughts. This is an investigation of the body, I wish it will help.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best for you

[Misasc90]

Still want to spend a bit more time. Will reply tomorrow 🙏

[Misasc90]

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

No, these all require concepts not the raw sensation.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Sensations, an image, and I guess some smells, tastes and sounds technically too. But it's a label for these things.

[warissem]

Good morning

How do you feel to see that the body is a bunch of sensations? that there is no distinction between inside and outside?

Is there still seeking happening?

If so what is missing?

Feel free to expose any lasting doubt about the illusion of a separate self.

Best for you

[Misasc90]

How do you feel to see that the body is a bunch of sensations? that there is no distinction between inside and outside?

It's something I've recognized before. So more affirming than anything else. No strong emotion.

Is there still seeking happening?

If so what is missing?

I'm not sure. No strong sense of seeking, but still a significantly sense of incompleteness or something 'more' having to happen. Not an active energy, but more passive. I can't explain what it is exactly...

[warissem]

Hi Michael

Right now, there is awareness of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, thoughts, ... Being aware is still here when eyes are closed, when there is silence (no sounds), no smells, no tastes, no sensations (when there is anesthesia), no thoughts, ...
Is it the case ? Is there "something" which is outside of awareness?
I= being aware (awareness). All what is done is to recognize this simple fact.There is no more to do, you are already that :just be IT knowingly.

The illusion resides in thoughts, a mis-identification to a separate self, an imaginary entity composed of a mental image of what you see in the mirror, and feelings, sensations, thoughts I, me, my, and all memories of experiences turning around me.
All what is a separate self is arising in awareness. Is there awareness of these arisings or is there an I or a separate self or Michael being aware?

Best for you

[Misasc90]

This was very clear.

Michael image, me-my-I thoughts, feelings, sense of doing, etc. arises. No Michael is aware. Michael is an arising. Insentient.

[warissem]

Hi Michael

I invite you to go for a walk in nature and look at what is going on in direct experience : sights, sounds, sensations, tastes, smells and notice that life is happening all by itself.

Let me know if you are ready to answer to the final questions.

Best for you

[Misasc90]

I think I'm ready

[warissem]

Good morning

These are the final questions. Ponder on each on them and elaborate the answer for each of them separately.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you

[Misasc90]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no self, me, I as a 'thing', but there is the label or idea. A label or idea is a thought, not an actual thing.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's an idea, image in the mind, a hologram-like notion.

This image in the mind doesn't represent anything real. It is as though the mind creates a fabrication, an imaginary identity and somehow identification with that fabrication takes place. There is the belief that I am it (imaginary separate self). For example, the image of 'bad friend Michael' or 'good friend Michael' can appear in the mind. Then there is the belief that it is me.

The image modulates based on the environment - eg, when at home with my mum I'm a son who lives at home. When at school I'm a student overseas, etc. When cleaning dishes I seemingly become the cleaner. Really all that's happening is the body is cleaning dishes, but the me-narrative is what the mind conjures up.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The image of 'me' or 'michael' is still very much here in experience. It still feels like 'my' experience vs 'a' experience. Is this normal?

When I pay very very close attention I see 'my experience' is a very very subtle idea and there is only experience (not my). But this hasn't sunk in fully. Will it? Does it need to?

I feel lighter, thinned out, less solid. I see Michael as an imaginary image a lot more often, but still forget. I see the fabrication and it's ability to seemingly solidify and grasp attention. I know when I analyse this fabrication, it is not pointing to a real thing. Things seem more like an unfolding and whimsical. More in touch with raw experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Hard to say. Slow burn process. I also doubt if it's 'fully' over.

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

Decision - words in mind "I am deciding" + physical sensation + belief that decision is being made

Intention - I struggle to describe. For me now it's showing as a glfeelimg in the chest. An urge. A want.

Free will, choice and control feels. More like an unfolding. The world just happening. Decision and intention don't necessarily feel like this.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

Can't find a point where something begins to happen. If it rains, there might be the thought "grab umbrella" if umbrella found then it's grabbed. If not then frustration may arise. Rain occured naturally, etc.

Natural world effortlessly plays out and the internal world is similar with the illusion of control.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Nothing is the right answer. I feel this sometimes, not always.

6) Anything to add?

Just the questions I've peppered throughout.

And maybe just confirmation if what I've explained is correct. Doubt is still present.