Unraveling

[davjak]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Thoughts of an in-dwelling and independently functioning agent are nothing but conditioned thoughts arising and passing.

What are you looking for at LU? Guidance that points out and helps bring to light remaining fixations and attachments, bare bones, straight-to-the-core pointing. Someone to assist in piercing whatever remains of the I delusion/ selfing mechanisms.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? To be pushed! In a guide, someone who is wise to ego/identity structures, someone who will point to any remaining ignorance, someone to serve as a mirror that reflects and helps make apparent what still seems to thwart falling away of the illusion of self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? 8 years talk therapy, additional EMDR, many years on an on again/off again path, 2 past years with night and day, all-consuming passion.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Bluejay]

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

3. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

4. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Enjoy! :)

[davjak]

Pleasure to meet you Henri, and thank you for responding. You can call me David. I am eager to start and jump right in. I have looked over the disclaimer and other introductory remarks. Following are my response to the 4 questions below:

1. I have not experienced dramatic shifts on my path, more like a gradual dissolving or slow awakening from an entranced state, such that the heavy, burdensome, unpleasant experience of living has grown lighter, with less suffering. I expect that with the realization of no self, this lightening will continue, and there will be no more character based, mental torment.

@. I will not change in my essence. The character David will no longer be confused with something imagined, but will be more fully and deeply experienced as an empty manifestation of 'that about which nothing can be said'. There will be no idea of a me experienced as a separately existing entity amidst myriad other separate selves.

3. This is all in great flux at this point in my apparent journey, but I still lapse into the enchantment, forgetting the imaginary nature of the agent's inner landscape. When this happens, there arises what is part and parcel of the small, separate, fragile character, namely heaviness, misery, confusion. Fortunately, these clouds do not linger long now. The thought has occurred that this is all unfolding just fine on its own, and is just a matter of time, but here I am, having found my to this site. There is eagerness for this bubble to pop for good.

4. Nothing can ever be missing from anything, nothing will be added. The shift will be the loss of a delusion, an imaginary I.

I welcome your thoughts!
Thank you,
d

[davjak]

And, if I may share an example of the arising metal content to offer some context and an example of the lingering selfing, here is a bit of what swirled in the background after posting the above:

I'm smart, I express this well. These are good, insightful answers. Someone reading this will see I am not far from the goal. As I mentioned, these thoughts don't generally entrance for long before they're recognized. But I also recognize these are not trying, stressful or triggering circumstances. In those situations, the fabrication might linger a lot longer.

[Bluejay]

Hello David!

There will be no idea of a me experienced as a separately existing entity amidst myriad other separate selves.

Depending on how this is meant, this may still be there when the illusion of self drops. But we can explore this more closely as we get there.

When this happens, there arises what is part and parcel of the small, separate, fragile character, namely heaviness, misery, confusion. Fortunately, these clouds do not linger long now. The thought has occurred that this is all unfolding just fine on its own, and is just a matter of time, but here I am, having found my to this site. There is eagerness for this bubble to pop for good.

Something you can start exploring is whenever there is something like heaviness is to go directly to the sensation(s) in the body, and rest in them. Do not try to get rid of them. Welcome everything. Sit with them, like you would with a friend that is sad.

And, if I may share an example of the arising metal content to offer some context and an example of the lingering selfing, here is a bit of what swirled in the background after posting the above:

I'm smart, I express this well. These are good, insightful answers. Someone reading this will see I am not far from the goal. As I mentioned, these thoughts don't generally entrance for long before they're recognized. But I also recognize these are not trying, stressful or triggering circumstances. In those situations, the fabrication might linger a lot longer.

Thank you for honestly sharing.

Even here you can pay attention to the feeling that gives rise to the urge be smart, express well, and so on. Then rest with those unpleasant feelings.

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[davjak]

Hello Henri. Thank you for your response.

"There will be no idea of a me experienced as a separately existing entity amidst myriad other separate selves."

Depending on how this is meant, this may still be there when the illusion of self drops. But we can explore this more closely as we get there.

Good catch. I agree. Not a burning question, but perhaps something to explore, or something that will simply become clear.

Something you can start exploring is whenever there is something like heaviness is to go directly to the sensation(s) in the body, and rest in them. Do not try to get rid of them. Welcome everything. Sit with them, like you would with a friend that is sad.

Will do.

Thank you for honestly sharing.

Even here you can pay attention to the feeling that gives rise to the urge be smart, express well, and so on. Then rest with those unpleasant feelings.

This is perhaps a bright spot in this character. Once these movements of self praise or esteem building are recognized, I feel no shame in exposing them, as with the recognition, they are already seen as foreign objects and not Self. But this is a central feature of the identity structure, the need or wish to be of superior qualities, intellect, talent, etc. So, I appreciate your pointing to the feelings and beliefs that give rise to these urges.

As for direct experience, I am somewhat familiar. I understand there is sense experience, and there there is the overlay imposed by mind. I can't say I've done much exploration or practice, however. I am familiar with the writings of Greg Goode.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

I am eager to hear more. I believe I am clear on this matter. I believe you are pointing to referring to direct experience rather than using thought as a referent for/substitute for experience. I realize sense experience ordinarily comes with labels, like "socks" and "white" and a sense of ownership. I also recognize the experience beneath these labels is all made of the same stuff, regardless of the myriad labels, and that 'stuff' is a movement of consciousness and made of consciousness. Am I off course on any of this?
Thank you,
David

[Bluejay]

Good catch. I agree. Not a burning question, but perhaps something to explore, or something that will simply become clear.

It may come up later. We will face it then!

This is perhaps a bright spot in this character. Once these movements of self praise or esteem building are recognized, I feel no shame in exposing them, as with the recognition, they are already seen as foreign objects and not Self. But this is a central feature of the identity structure, the need or wish to be of superior qualities, intellect, talent, etc. So, I appreciate your pointing to the feelings and beliefs that give rise to these urges.

It's definitely a bright spot. The more honest, the better in my experience. It points to the commitment to waking up, or whatever this is :).

I am eager to hear more. I believe I am clear on this matter. I believe you are pointing to referring to direct experience rather than using thought as a referent for/substitute for experience. I realize sense experience ordinarily comes with labels, like "socks" and "white" and a sense of ownership. I also recognize the experience beneath these labels is all made of the same stuff, regardless of the myriad labels, and that 'stuff' is a movement of consciousness and made of consciousness. Am I off course on any of this?

Referring to direct experience, yes, instead of thought as the middle-man.

Let's explore this more so it becomes clearer.

And let's start laying the groundwork with a few pointers. You may be familiar with these already, or they may feel elementary. If that's the case, just see it as repetition.

I'd like you to try this as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line.

Also pay attention to how the mind wants to label, judge, interpret, and constantly make sense of things.

[davjak]

Was just coming back to report to report this:

Once these movements of self praise or esteem building are recognized, I feel no shame in exposing them, as with the recognition, they are already seen as foreign objects and not Self. But this is a central feature of the identity structure, the need or wish to be of superior qualities, intellect, talent, etc.

Another example of the selfing at work, identifying as the one who is good at recognizing these things in himself, getting under the falsity, capable, perceptive, blah, blah, blah. I am willing to expose them, I am not ashamed to do so, I, I, I, me, me, me. Oh well, I suppose there is nothing more to do except to keep digging away at this, recognizing the sneaky I-making and seeking of praise for an imaginary, needy someone. I do take some solace in the willingness to throw it all in the fire, though. What misery it would be to still be attached to and unaware of such self deceptions. It makes me feel pity for anyone still so caught in it. I know that state so so well.

One other thing I was going to mention, and I don't know how this fits in with the LU approach, but I figure it will come up at some point. It's the chattering voice in the head. Part of 'my story' is that this is one of the the major hang-ups... just FYI.

I will take up your suggestions on direct experiencing and report back tomorrow. Thanks again!

[Bluejay]

One other thing I was going to mention, and I don't know how this fits in with the LU approach, but I figure it will come up at some point. It's the chattering voice in the head. Part of 'my story' is that this is one of the the major hang-ups... just FYI.

What's the problem with a chattering voice?

Find out who has a problem with it, or is it another thought with an expectation?

See you tomorrow!

[davjak]

Anticipation of eating a mango, simply = thought
Arousal of hunger, simply = sensation
Seeing mango, simply = image/color
Movement, reaching for, grasping, picking up mango, simply = sensation
Seeing knife, simply = image/color
Reaching for, grasping, picking up knife, simply = sensation
Cutting mango, simply = sensation
Smelling mango, simply = smell
Taste of eating mango, simply = taste
Hearing chewing, simply = sound
Swallowing, simply = sensation
Thought about the taste of the mango, simply = thought

What comes up this morning is this:
"Thoughts are not the problem, it's that you're sitting here looking at them, fool! Simply look elsewhere. Look where the finger is pointing!" This seems to be the basic enchantment, attention habitually absorbed by thought. Another, related aspect is the identity structures, and another is not recognizing thoughts as nothing but thoughts. So, what is thought? A movement or ripple in the consciousness medium. Well, that has a lot of explanatory power, not. But, it occurs to me that no thought or thoughts can reveal what thoughts are. A hundred thoughts can't say what one thought is. You just can't get there with thought. So, I suppose the question ends there. It's not where the finger is pointing anyway. Be done with the question of the nature of thought. We only need to know they do not hold truth.

As for identity, what I see going on lately seems to me to be a sort of life review. There are periods of relative calm and alternating states of tension and agitation, often coming in the middle of the night. It seems to be common now that dream content or events of the day bring up material from the past, and it comes with tension and erratic energy. Once this energy and thought/emotional energy gets going, there's not much to do but ride out what might be hours of lying in bed in a lot of discomfort. Sometimes I will get up and sit with it. It usually results in a following day of neck pain and potentially a migraine. All this plays out against a backdrop of less overall suffering but still a general sense that life is just not all that appealing.

There is a sense of the possibility of awakening to the miraculousness of being, and that it's simply a matter of a spell that's cast, an enchantment within a mental object world, but it's a stubborn fixation when the mind has been a lifelong refuge from the stress of life as defective character & its struggle for survival. I imagine one type of character is empowered to take action within the drama to make the drama more satisfying, while another uses the mind to escape to an alternate realm. This character falls into this latter category. I know, another story, but there's that pesky fixation thing. How to crack this nut? Maybe this is the cracking and there is just impatience with it.

[Bluejay]

You just can't get there with thought. So, I suppose the question ends there. It's not where the finger is pointing anyway. Be done with the question of the nature of thought. We only need to know they do not hold truth.

Exactly. No thought is the answer. Any landing in thought in this inquiry is a distraction.

All this plays out against a backdrop of less overall suffering but still a general sense that life is just not all that appealing.

There can definitely be a stage during this where things don't seem appealing. I went through years and years of what you might refer to as the dark night.

There is a sense of the possibility of awakening to the miraculousness of being, and that it's simply a matter of a spell that's cast, an enchantment within a mental object world, but it's a stubborn fixation when the mind has been a lifelong refuge from the stress of life as defective character & its struggle for survival. I imagine one type of character is empowered to take action within the drama to make the drama more satisfying, while another uses the mind to escape to an alternate realm. This character falls into this latter category. I know, another story, but there's that pesky fixation thing. How to crack this nut? Maybe this is the cracking and there is just impatience with it.

Instead of doing all this thinking about it and trying to figure out how to crack it, go directly to the feelings underneath. When you say that life doesn't seem appealing, there's definitely a feeling underneath the thought story there. Go there and welcome it fully.

See if you can begin to notice that thinking about this is a distraction from uncomfortable feeling or sensation.

Here's the next pointer, which examines how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen and paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

[davjak]

No thought is the answer. Any landing in thought in this inquiry is a distraction.

Yeah, bingo. This is the crux of the matter, something I've heard, read, recognized, and yet haven't allowed to fully seep in. It's as if the momentum of the mind's spin has kept it ricocheting off the surface. It's sinking in now. Your expression is the right medicine at the right time. I can do the exercise a bit later and will report back.
Thanks so much!
d

[davjak]

Instead of doing all this thinking about it and trying to figure out how to crack it, go directly to the feelings underneath.

Oh, yeah, the feelings underneath. It's possible to go on thinking about how the answer is not in thought, and I never fully let this sink in, blah, blah, blah. The feelings underneath. The feelings underneath. Got it.

[davjak]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I suppose this brings up the question we put off above, for when it might come up. I've felt the question of doership was settled years ago with the insight that human beings are obviously willful agents, but the will or choice is in no way the choice of an individual. It is the result of the totality of conditions. This seems simple enough. From there I would reason that it is possible to feel oneself as a functional agent and yet, see/know this agency as determined by the totality.

I would think it could be said the second part of the exercise is truer or more accurate, as it is without the overlay of a fictional actor at the center.

2. What is here without labels?

Sense experience and the knowing of it, which are not separate things.

3

. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels in themselves are an experience, so they don't affect experience. They just become the experience when thinking and labeling crowd out and distract from other body sense experiences. In this way, one who is prone to living in his head is living in labels rather than sensual experience. Does this affect experience? I guess I'd just say labeling leads to experience of labeling, so it leads to one type of experience at the cost of others. Being caught up in labeling is an unpleasant way to live, so yeah, it's a rather nasty way to go through life.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I actually failed to notice this part of the instruction until afterwards. It seems to be another example of avoiding the bodily senses, while taking to the mind experience exclusively. If I try to feel back into it now, I assume the difference is the feel of direct experience v. a lot of thinking, all centered around an I who is isolated, separate, precarious, limited, lacking, seeking, etc. Direct experience is not unknown, it's just that thinking has tended to take up all the bandwidth. The feelings beneath, the feelings beneath. This needs to be my mantra.

[Bluejay]

I would think it could be said the second part of the exercise is truer or more accurate, as it is without the overlay of a fictional actor at the center.

'I would think' and 'I suppose' usually means you're in thinking. Remember, these pointers are useless if done intellectually. You have to look in direct experience.

I guess I'd just say labeling leads to experience of labeling, so it leads to one type of experience at the cost of others. Being caught up in labeling is an unpleasant way to live, so yeah, it's a rather nasty way to go through life.

Again, you are in thought here.

The answers are very simple when you look in direct experience.

I actually failed to notice this part of the instruction until afterwards. It seems to be another example of avoiding the bodily senses, while taking to the mind experience exclusively. If I try to feel back into it now, I assume the difference is the feel of direct experience v. a lot of thinking, all centered around an I who is isolated, separate, precarious, limited, lacking, seeking, etc. Direct experience is not unknown, it's just that thinking has tended to take up all the bandwidth. The feelings beneath, the feelings beneath. This needs to be my mantra.

You say you will try to feel back into it, but then you go into an assumption, which is more thinking. No assumptions or guesses are needed in direct experience. :)

It's like if I ask you what the weather is. You go outside and check. You don't have to guess or assume anything.

Can you redo the pointer while looking in direct experience?

Focus on the five physical senses, which are see, hear, feel, smell, taste. Anything else is a thought.