Exploration

[Misasc90]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That what we take as 'me' is just a bundle of thoughts and feelings with no enduring independence - not a doer, knower or experiencer. Rather there is just life unfolding with no character who operates in it.

What are you looking for at LU?
After very intense seeking I am wanting liberation. I want to FULLY see through the illusion of being an individual self who is limited and powerless. I am here to expose myself to direct, sharp and precise guidance without the complexity I have seen in other practices. Honestly I just want Truth... Whatever that means but had to write 200 words :)

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Personal guidance that's specific to my situation in each moment. An honest exchange which will open up the doors to freedom. Reassurance that I am following useful, helpful and effective advice to speed up my spiritual journey. Someone to call me out on any self deceit. An objective lens that I may be missing myself.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have dabbled in Buddhism - several vipassana retreats including a one month, dzogchen retreats and have read many many books and met many many teachers.

Have listened to and studied with many of the more modern non dual teachers eg Rupert Spira.

Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta have been huge influences and I have spent hours upon hours inquiring using their methods and advice.

My main practice is Traditional Advaita, where I am actually partaking in a 3 year ashram course. This involves learning scripture and meditation on my essential nature as primary practices.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Good morning

I am glad to accompany you during the investigation of seeing through the illusion of a separate self.
There are some agreements to engage with :

Check here in the forum every day or at least once per 2 days. This is important to take the flow of looking. If you are not OK with this, I will invite another guide for you.

Put aside all what you know about advaita, spirituality, oneness or whatever around this topic.

Be 100% honest when you give answers : that is you are certain that the answer is true and seen in direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations).

Read the disclaimer text and learn how to use the quote function (instructions are given on this forum).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Let me know when we can begin.

best wishes
Warissem

[Misasc90]

Hey! Nice to e-meet you. I am ready to begin and agree to the agreements :)

[warissem]

Hi

Let us begin with differentiating between direct experience and thought stories. During our dialog I ask questions and look at direct experience till the answer is SEEN. I don't need answers from what is learnt or read in books.

Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching or sensations. Thoughts, concepts are used to communicate here.
Example : what is the color of the sky now?
You can answer through memory OR
Open the window, LOOK AT sky and SEE the answer.

If all this is clear we can go ahead. Meanwhile just play to split apart thoughts and labels from what is going on.

Best for you

[Misasc90]

Makes complete sense. Even looking at my phone typing I am paying close attention to colour only.

Just want to ask if thoughts as raw thought (and not being lost in the comcept) can be included in the category of 'direct experience', or for now better to leave it out?

[warissem]

Good evening

Yes, thoughts are part of the experience but not giving credit to them. Just let them come and go.

What arises when you read this :

There is no you, no inherent self in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.

Waiting for your insights

[Misasc90]

'In any shape and form' stood out.

When I look at my experience, I see many colours, shapes, formless forms (sounds, tastes, etc) and thoughts of a 'me'. While typing this I see the screen, fingers moving, sounds of tapping and there is like a thin hologram in my mind's eye. An image of Michael's face and a vague idea that "I am typing" - words. I'm seeing them as more forms, but they themselves don't represent any 'actual' thing 'out there'. Eg. Thought of door also has a door I can point to. Thought of Michael has no Michael to point to, just a body which is a body not a me. Or thought, which is a thought, not a me.

I get lost in the hologram and the words "I am typing" but if I look closely it's clear that only fingers type. There does seem to be the sense of someone here who is the writer. But when I look closely it's just that thin hologram like image which I tell myself is me/I. Hmm. This is interesting: that image can't type, it can only be an image. Why do I think it can type? I think... Who thinks? It's another image thinking it thinks.

Even though I see all this... There is a compelling feeling that I am that image when I am lost in it / not paying attention to it. Falling into the identity is easy. But I can see it is an idea.

When I look into what you say: 'never was, it never will be'. I see all my memories as these images and any time in the future I believe there is a self there will be more imagery I identify with. I still don't know who or what is identifying with the imagery in the mind. Do I identify with the imagery? If yes, then who is that I? I am not clear who I am if not the imagery as there is a sense of being.

When you say 'there is no you'... Is there really no me? Or no thing in experience I can point to as a 'me'? Is there a difference? Not even sure if I am asking you or asking myself haha.

[warissem]

Good morning Michael

You are doing a good job of looking and you are asking the right questions for "yourself", for no one. To be clearer about this stuff, I invite you to investigate the thoughts. Ponder on each question, look at the process of thoughts, see the answer.
Use the quote function to select each answer before responding.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Best for you

[warissem]

PS :
Use the quote function to select each question before responding.

[Misasc90]

Hello!

Where are they coming from and going to?

They don't seem to clearly come from anywhere or go anywhere. It's like each 'new' thought is fresh and then the next is fresh and so on and so on. Almost like always new.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I know the answer should be 'no' but it did feel at times I could control or make the next thought appear. Eg. 'I will think of blueberry 10 times' - blueberry.... X10. I know the initial thought of 'blueberry' vs another word was randomly what popped up, as well as the instruction of 10 times, but after that it felt I had control. Other than this circumstance I'd say no. I also know that the sense of doing or controlling just appeared and was a more subtle thought.

Can you predict your next thought?

Similar to above. I couldn't predict it be blueberry, but I could predict I'll have a single thought 'blueberry' 10 times after that thought appeared. However I know if the task I set myself was 1000 repetitions I would fail. But other than that, no I can't predict the next thought. And even with the blueberry example the prediction in some real sense is itself an unpredictable thought.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

For a brief period but it's unmaintainable. So no to the 'only' aspect of the question.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts

Similar to above, I can say right now 'I am going to think of a happy memory' and briefly can. But even that initial thought was actually spontaneous and not a choice. But I am aware that painful thoughts will spontaneously happen at some point

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Same as above.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I see what is suggested here. It's just another thought.

[warissem]

Good morning

Good observations about thoughts. You have seen that even the intent "blueberry" for example is a thought arising from nowhere.
How does it feel to see that there is no thinker? Where you or are you in control ? Have you chosen things, what to speak? Have you ever made a decision?

Now how about the "I", "me" thoughts, is there someone saying I, me? is there you, Michael saying I?

Best wishes

[Misasc90]

These are great questions!

How does it feel to see that there is no thinker?

There is a reluctance (feels like I feel the reluctance) to say that I fully recognize there is no thinker in any consistent fashion. I see it clearly when I look at it. I see clearly that even the thinker is just a thought-image of someone thinking, but then can easily get distracted day to day and identify as a thinker.

Where you or are you in control ? Have you chosen things, what to speak? Have you ever made a decision?

No, it's just thought unfolding and part of that thought is the thought of "I decide" ot "I choose". Same kind of feelimg as above.

Now how about the "I", "me" thoughts, is there someone saying I, me? is there you, Michael saying I?

No, it's just a thought. For me it's more an image of 'myself' and then ascribing the label 'I' or 'me' to it. Someone saying it, would be itself a thought.

[warissem]

Hi Michael

There is a reluctance (feels like I feel the reluctance) to say that I fully recognize there is no thinker in any consistent fashion.

Is there any fear behind this, to let go a belief in a thinker? In a you controlling?
Anyway, there never was a thinker in the first place.

I see it clearly when I look at it. I see clearly that even the thinker is just a thought-image of someone thinking,

Yes, great.

but then can easily get distracted day to day and identify as a thinker.

What (to not say who) is being distracted?

No, it's just thought unfolding and part of that thought is the thought of "I decide" ot "I choose". Same kind of feelimg as above.

No, it's just a thought. For me it's more an image of 'myself' and then ascribing the label 'I' or 'me' to it. Someone saying it, would be itself a thought.

You are clear about it. Is there you noticing thoughts?

Best wishes

[Misasc90]

Is there any fear behind this, to let go a belief in a thinker? In a you controlling?

Yes, but the fear is surrounding the fact that I might be deceiving myself and not really getting it. Less about fear of losing control and more about being inauthentic in my understanding or stopping short and not fully recognizing it.

I recognize now when I pay attention that 'not getting it' is another thought. It's all just thought on thought on thought.

The fear is surrounding the notion 'I need to get it right'. While believing this it's hard to not identify with the thought.

What (to not say who) is being distracted?

I need to spend more time on this. I know the answer is that the distracted one is another thought either during or after the seeming distraction, but I don't fully recognize that in my experience (if I'm being honest)

Is there you noticing thoughts?

'You'/'me' is a thought. But there is noticing of a thought. I'm not sure what notices it...

Yes, great.

A doubt arises... How do I knoe I am not the thought-image of a Michael character? Yes it's only a thought, but whose to say I'm not a thought?

When this doubt occurs I have been asking myself what does that thought-image represent in my direct experience and I see the thought-image doesn't reference any 'thing'. Is this a good line of reasoning to follow?

[warissem]

Hi Michael

Reasoning helps at some level but it is better to LOOK if there is a separate self. Just give faith to what we are doing here. Read the questions, look at the pointers then SEE the answer.

In your case it is seen that there is no thinker but there are still thoughts of doubt arising, just see them as thoughts.

Can a thought think?
Can a thought read these words?
Is there awareness of these words on the screen?
Is there awareness of what is seen ? what is heard?

Best for you