The beginning of the end :)

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

Thanks for those very complete answers. It was very good that you kept quoting actual experience.

. The subject is free will would be a fascinating one to deepen on! [/quote

Is there free will?

Who or what would exercise this?

There appears to be free will, the idea of an entity that has freedom to 'choose' this or that, 'act' this way or that.

A lingering niggle for some can relate to the question of responsibility. There can be anxiety about " Well, If there's no responsibility then what would make someone behave well or not behave badly?". Then abandoning belief in "free will" can seem somehow complicated. Do you recognise any of this?


I'd like to invite other guides now to take a look through your thread . They may or may not have questions for you . This process can take a few days but do check in to see if there's any feedback.

All best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

The guides did not have any further questions. Neither do I. but we can still carry on talking, if you like and look at Free Will?

Your thread will be moved very soon (if not already) to the Archive section of LU Forum.

I will PM you too, by the way and you should receive another PM from an LU admin.

All best

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hi Jon

Would love to go into the free will element some more.

Is there free will?

Who or what would exercise this?

There appears to be free will, the idea of an entity that has freedom to 'choose' this or that, 'act' this way or that.

A lingering niggle for some can relate to the question of responsibility. There can be anxiety about " Well, If there's no responsibility then what would make someone behave well or not behave badly?". Then abandoning belief in "free will" can seem somehow complicated. Do you recognise any of this?

Is there free will is so fascinating.
I have recently observed the ‘avatar’ drinking more than it did in the apparent past, and also at points smoking. The ‘thought’ or memory of the avatar, is that this one didn’t really do that much in the recent years. It’s funny to write this cos it already seems to begin to answer itself, it’s the ‘memory’ of what happened before - which is all just thoughts. Looking for identification with past again. Or projected future ideas.

In a linked example - I also recently took a break from the gym for some time. Was that a ‘free Will’ example if i was recommended to do it? Totally we could say cos no one is forcing ‘me’ to not go. And then when I went back to the gym yesterday - there was a moment of feeling a bit different when breathing - instantly the mind goes to ‘it’s cos you smoked yesterday, a little bit and more the day before and you haven’t been to the gym’. So then it came to - was there free will to smoke, or was that a choice? The answer again as ever is it’s just what happened.

Free will is determining ‘thought activity / commentary’ about what might occur. Or what has occurred. And it’s again always in the past or future no? Again even if we are poised at a moment which says ok there is a decision to make here, it’s already been made right? And it’s just the commentary / thinker, thinking there is anything to be done here. Laying all the meaning, debate, turmoil, frustration etc etc on top in the vain of thoughts or decision. Where as - what is happening is just happening.
Would you have anything else here to add?

The point you made about morality - it’s again thought right - being laid on top of what ‘might’ occur. I recently spoke with a client and we were speaking on this subject and he said well if there is no free will and it’s all going to happen what’s to stop me going out and shooting the postman… and I was like wellllll - that’s your ‘thought’ coming in - with fear - and projection into the future (from thought) about what could happen. And I said well if that’s what is going to happen - there no way either of us can do anything to stop that. It’s just in your happening, in your script. But all the ‘suffering’ thoughts laid on top of that ‘occurrence’ will be again, not the truth of who you are, but that thinker again.

I’d love to know if you’ve had any ‘ah ha’ stories or moments around free will, and if there are any other exercises you recommend?

Very grateful to be keeping the discussion going.

[JonathanR]

Hey Tom

Let's take a look then

. So then it came to - was there free will to smoke, or was that a choice? The answer again as ever is it’s just what happened.

Free will is determining ‘thought activity / commentary’ about what might occur. Or what has occurred. And it’s again always in the past or future no?

Yes.

Does it seem to you that Free Will always assumes a "self" that must be more or less unchanging?

The idea of Free Will also seems to tie in very closely (almost like gearing) to the 'I make things happen' narrative , which includes 'choice, decisions , control'.

Inherent to the Free Will notion is the assumption of a duality in which there's an entity that is separate from 'everything else'. Is this what's going on?

Is there in any shape or form an entity that is 'separate'.?

. And it’s just the commentary / thinker, thinking there is anything to be done here. Laying all the meaning, debate, turmoil, frustration etc etc on top in the vain of thoughts or decision. Where as - what is happening is just happening.
Would you have anything else here to add?

Actually, no.

. he said well if there is no free will and it’s all going to happen what’s to stop me going out and shooting the postman

Sometimes people say this as if this is what would happen by default. It seems to be a narrative based around an idea that left to it's own devices nature is evil and destructive?

I'll take a look and see if there are exercises that have been offered by other guides.

Theres this ammusing talk by Alan Watts on Free Will

https://youtu.be/OOjQScg0VeI?si=Wagn9RRoLLHewvRy

All best

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hey Jon

Does it seem to you that Free Will always assumes a "self" that must be more or less unchanging?

Yes.

Inherent to the Free Will notion is the assumption of a duality in which there's an entity that is separate from 'everything else'. Is this what's going on?

Is there in any shape or form an entity that is 'separate'.?

Yes free will would absolutely assume an 'individual' concept. That there is an 'I' which is making decisions.

The idea of a separate self is but remembered... again it assumes a history, a remembrance of what has happened before. And also the assumption that there is a 'correct and incorrect' decision. For example without history / or past thought, how could one know that there is a 'moral' decision to make, one way or another. An identity can apparently make the decision to do something 'immoral' in the eyes of 'society' but that is to assume that that known identity, knows a 'society' and is an 'identity' in that society. So therefore has the 'information', that there is a 'right or wrong' decision to be made. Or any decision at all for that matter. When we take the stance, as we have in so much of LU, that its just what's happening, and the 'experiencer' is watching the 'do-er', the assumed identity, which is remembered then free will would assume an individual concept.

Sometimes people say this as if this is what would happen by default. It seems to be a narrative based around an idea that left to it's own devices nature is evil and destructive?

Yes it would absolutely assume that. With the assumption that we are primarily totally selfish at the core that is where many questioning minds seem to go when I discuss this with others. But when we really consider it, it's like if there was free will to go out and do something 'ghastly', it would be just what's happening, but also the 'desire' to do that, is assuming a 'self' which wants to go and do that. And seeing how the 'thinking' mind seems to work, bombarding horrific ideas and images all the time, which almost opposite like a threat to what could happen, its always again in the future, or the past. Past trauma which happened to 'us' for example, did we choose that? Did we 'choose' to punch that person, and then felt really guilty/bad afterwards? Was there the free will to punch them, or it just happened. And then the thoughts hold us ransom in an 'identity' of how 'bad' we are, or how 'great' it felt to hit them. The idea of Free Will must assume a very solid belief in an identity.

Would be awesome to continue any further exercises!

Thanks for the Alan Watts clip, might have to listen to that one several times over to let it go in! If you've found any other videos which answer this well I'd love to see them. Ive had quite a search on YouTube for some solid ones without a huge amount of success but I did like Mooji's one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p8113stahY

Cheers,
Tom

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

. Would be awesome to continue any further exercises!

If I felt that you had any problem with seeing through Free Wil, instinct would probably cut in to offer a pointer, or perhaps an exercise, to address this, as instincts usually do when I guide. But no pointers are coming because the situation seems theoretical.

Fact is that individual, separate Free Will fell the moment it was noticed that thoughts cannot be prevented nor created by a "me". That was eight years ago. Free Will is a distant nonsense, though it doesn't rule out the possibility of some sort of cosmic will /creativity/destructivity that is not under a "my control". But it's a mystery, really weird, also normal and beautiful!


Ha ha! :-)