Looking for guidance

[CPJ]

You said there is a greater understanding of "what I am". Explain. What are you?

It feels difficult to choose the words. I was trying to say that what I formally thought of as a solid ego or "I" is an experience, not a solid thing.

[cosmiK]

It feels difficult to choose the words. I was trying to say that what I formally thought of as a solid ego or "I" is an experience, not a solid thing.

Alright, good. What we are checking for is identification. I am ______. If there is an answer, then relay it to me. If there isn't, then relay that to me as well. Whatever comes up needs to be addressed.

So Chris,
let us check where we are:

Is there an Experiencer anywhere, in any form or in any way? Or is there just a seamless Experience, and thoughts about it?

Is there a separate you,me anywhere at all? Was there ever? What about a self? Is there one? Will there ever be?

[CPJ]

Is there an Experiencer anywhere, in any form or in any way? Or is there just a seamless Experience, and thoughts about it?

There is just experience, and thought, which is part of experience.

Is there a separate you,me anywhere at all? Was there ever? What about a self? Is there one? Will there ever be?

Any experience of separation is part of experience. There never has been, and never will be a self, just the experience of self.

[cosmiK]

Chris,

so... do you exist?

[CPJ]

so... do you exist?

No. There is still an experience of existing most of the time. There are brief moments of experiencing not existing.

[cosmiK]

No. There is still an experience of existing most of the time. There are brief moments of experiencing not existing.

You may be referring to that sense of Aliveness, Being or Presence? This will always be present and doesn't need to change. It is that sense of aliveness that is later referred to as 'I am ____' or taken to be 'me'. If this is your experience then you need to investigate if this sense of aliveness/existence is Personal? If so where is this person or claimant?

So Chris, where do you feel you are at with this?

Let me know and we can proceed.

[CPJ]

This will always be present and doesn't need to change. It is that sense of aliveness that is later referred to as 'I am ____' or taken to be 'me'. If this is your experience then you need to investigate if this sense of aliveness/existence is Personal? If so where is this person or claimant?

"Aliveness" seems to imply existence. The brief experiences mentioned before aren't personal.

[cosmiK]

The Aliveness refers to the that feeling of Presence, Being... some refer to it as a sense of aliveness, and it is often labelled I/me because of it's unmistakable Life-ness. What we are doing here is specifically seeing through the illusion of a separate self, "i/me/myself". That separate self does not exist outside of thought. Those thoughts refer to other thoughts, sensations and that sense of presence. There is clearly no separate self, but there clearly IS something, whatever we may want to call it. If nothing existed then this sentence could not be read.

Alright perfect...

so...

if there is no separate self, then what is there? (answer in the best way you can describe it directly from your experience)

where are you at with this investigation? have you seen through the illusion of the separate self?

[CPJ]

if there is no separate self, then what is there? (answer in the best way you can describe it directly from your experience)

The experience of the moment. That's my experience. It's hard not to attach ideas that I've read about onto it, whether it is "god, "awareness," "oneness," whatever. Awareness seems closest to experience

where are you at with this investigation? have you seen through the illusion of the separate self?

I feel like I have seen through the illusion. However, I still haven't experienced what is left. There is still attachment to this "self" even though it is false. I still experience a self.

[cosmiK]

The experience of the moment. That's my experience. It's hard not to attach ideas that I've read about onto it, whether it is "god, "awareness," "oneness," whatever. Awareness seems closest to experience

Chris, great, don't try to attach any ideas... call it whatever feels most authentic to you. Again... please check if this Awareness is personal? Is it "I"/"me"?

I feel like I have seen through the illusion.

Okay, so let's check where you are at, and we can proceed.

When you say you have seen through the illusion, please describe:
1) how it was pre-illusion
2) when you saw it and describe the shift
3) what is different now after
Basically... what has shifted? what has changed?

However, I still haven't experienced what is left.

What do you mean "what is left"? Is this in regards to my "if there is no self, then what is there?" question? You can just let go of that question and go straight in to the moment to moment noticing: Is there an experience-er separate from Experience, or is that experience-er also just part of the Experience that is separate through thought/conceptualization? Does there need to be someone who is aware or is awareness aware of itself? so... just Experience... just Awareness, which is non-dual and whole?

There is still attachment to this "self" even though it is false. I still experience a self.

Okay... please describe your experience of a self, in the light of reporting as accurately from Direct Experience as possible. Also describe this 'attachment to self'?

If there is anything more you want to discuss, please go ahead and write it.

Thanks, and look forward to hearing from you!

[CPJ]

check if this Awareness is personal? Is it "I"/"me"?

It's not

1) how it was pre-illusion
2) when you saw it and describe the shift
3) what is different now after
Basically... what has shifted? what has changed?

I started to see the illusion at least conceptually before this process. The turning point for me was looking at things through experience. Then the "I" or "ego" became part of experience, not something I necessarily identified with. That's the shift the best I can describe it. As I said before, there are times under pressure, that feelings come up that makes me realize that I still identify with ego when I am not present.

Okay... please describe your experience of a self, in the light of reporting as accurately from Direct Experience as possible. Also describe this 'attachment to self'?

The sense of self is experienced when it is threatened. I work with troubled children, among other things, and it is high stress, and their anger is often thrown at me. I experience sadness, fear, anger, throughout the day. That is when I feel that I am experiencing a self, a self who is threatened, insulted, or otherwise. I also experience joy, in breakthroughs, a self that did a good thing. Is this all because despite realizing the illusion, I still identify with it?
I'm on a bit of a ramble here.
I experience awareness, but it is a brief experience of no self, no story, presence. I have a lot of conceptual ideas about what that awareness is from books and teachings, and that fucks me up some of the time, because then I try to label it and make it a concept.
So where am I at? This process has been invaluable in understanding experience, and giving me an experience of not identifying with ego. Prior to that, I understood these things as concepts.

Is there an experience-er separate from Experience, or is that experience-er also just part of the Experience that is separate through thought/conceptualization? Does there need to be someone who is aware or is awareness aware of itself? so... just Experience... just Awareness, which is non-dual and whole?

So, there is just experience left. It feels very raw these days. There is no-one else there, but something still hangs on. That's the experience.

[cosmiK]

The sense of self is experienced when it is threatened. I work with troubled children, among other things, and it is high stress, and their anger is often thrown at me. I experience sadness, fear, anger, throughout the day. That is when I feel that I am experiencing a self, a self who is threatened, insulted, or otherwise. I also experience joy, in breakthroughs, a self that did a good thing. Is this all because despite realizing the illusion, I still identify with it?
I'm on a bit of a ramble here.

Even after seeing through the illusion, there are still 'human' reactions, emotions and even the appearance of a self that is enjoying or suffering. Regardless of all of this, is it clear that there is no actual self there, and just the experience of some very vivid and strong and visceral emotions that can be labelled as a "self"?

Even after seeing through the illusion, there may be arising identifications and fixations. Seeing through this doesn't fix all problems, it merely helps see that the core issue, this assumption of a central self/agent/"i/me" is nothing but a habitually placed label on Experience, on Awareness. What is clear, is that no matter what happens, and how turbulent and emotional it may be, that there is no separate self whatsoever. Is that clear?

Even after seeing through the illusion, conditioning remains. Regardless... is it clear that there is nothing to be conditioned? and noone that is conditioned? Is it clear that conditioning is just a pattern of Experience that is familiar and has predictability across situations?

and BTW... there are aftercare groups to deal with conditioning and such, and you will be introduced to all of them and the wonderful people that run around in them... BUT.... my main duty is to help you pass the 'Gate' and see through the Illusion. We have to accomplish that FIRST. This has to be CLEAR to you FIRST.

I experience awareness, but it is a brief experience of no self, no story, presence. I have a lot of conceptual ideas about what that awareness is from books and teachings, and that fucks me up some of the time, because then I try to label it and make it a concept.
So where am I at? This process has been invaluable in understanding experience, and giving me an experience of not identifying with ego. Prior to that, I understood these things as concepts.

I hope you are at the deep SEEING and KNOWING that no matter what happens, it happens to noone or no-thing, and that whatever happens is NOT personal, because there is no claimant.
~
Yeah Chris... drop all concepts about "ego" and "awareness". Can you see these are just labels that are placed on top of that seamless Aware-ing, that flow of Experience. When labels are placed with judgement over this flow... it seems to get a little tight, rigid, divided... when they are let go of, there is more flow. Regardless of flow or rigidness, which are more labels... is it simply clear that there is no YOU that is separate from Life, from Experience, from Awareness?

We can call it flow, Life, Experience, Awareness, Consciousness. These are all pointers to the seamless and kaleidoscopic dance that Was, Is, and Will-Be. Just SEE... NOTICE... Here, Now.

So, there is just experience left. It feels very raw these days. There is no-one else there, but something still hangs on. That's the experience.

Yes. but regardless of this, is it clear that there is no actual ? Is it clear, that Here and Now, there is no self, no "I"/"me", and just this dance... this expression... regardless if that is an expression of a suffering self, thoughts about ego, something hanging on, or pure awareness & no-self?

Take these questions as one last check to really LOOK & SEE if no-self is CLEAR to you. If it is, and there are no doubts, we can proceed to the final questions. If there are doubts, let us address those.

Let's do this! :)

[CPJ]

What is clear, is that no matter what happens, and how turbulent and emotional it may be, that there is no separate self whatsoever. Is that clear?

This is clear to me. I understand that it's all experience and no self. I just listened to a talk by Adyashanti about this last night, and it helped me see that the experience of ego is just experience and not a confirmation of an existence of self.

Even after seeing through the illusion, conditioning remains. Regardless... is it clear that there is nothing to be conditioned? and noone that is conditioned? Is it clear that conditioning is just a pattern of Experience that is familiar and has predictability across situations?

I'm starting to see this now. There is nobody to change, only experience.

Take these questions as one last check to really LOOK & SEE if no-self is CLEAR to you. If it is, and there are no doubts, we can proceed to the final questions. If there are doubts, let us address those.

It is painfully clear. I'm understanding the all the experiences, even the experience of "ego" is just that, and does not exist.
All this is clear. The experience has been rocky lately, but reflecting on it last night, and reviewing your response today has made it clear that even experiences that feel like self are not proof of such, and when deeply experienced, there is nothing there.
Thank you

[cosmiK]

Chris,

so here are the final questions. Take your time and answer honestly and as fully as you can.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.



4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?



6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing?



7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?



8) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

[CPJ]

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?

No. Not now, not ever.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion is a story we tell ourselves about ourselves. It's a story we learn as we grow, from childhood on. It seems to be a developmental process, perhaps for the child to grow and gain autonomy from it's parents. Experience happens, memories are created, identities are formed. It has its place perhaps, to negotiate the "world", but it also causes great suffering.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

It feels at times scary. These stories have felt important and real. They shaped who "I" am, now there's a realization that it was never real. There are beliefs that seemed so important to me, that are now false. This also feels freeing at times. There's nothing to maintain. There's a greater experience of presence, that all that there is the experience at this moment. There's a sense of starting all over. It feels silly even writing these words: more stories in an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

I'm not sure if I could yet. I would ask them to ask themselves who they are, to see for themselves. I might challenge them be saying that they don't exist. It might piss them off, but they may start wondering about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

As far as this process, having to speak from experience. I had been reading about this stuff from some time. I was understanding the illusion conceptually and having some experiences, but I was going in circles. Understanding and feeling the seamless experience was the point that it really tipped for me.

6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing?

Before seeing it was confusion; going in circles around my "ego." It was seeking and grasping, trying to find answers for someone or somewhere else. It was journaling and going on rants, chasing my tail. Being held to speaking from experience was hard. Being challenged to take the "I" out of the discourse was difficult at first. Then there was the experience, and that's all that's left.

7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?

There's an experience of openness. I have let go of a lot, and there's more to come. I think there will be more letting go. I will probably not change that much on the outside, the day to day. I just experience. I still have beliefs and principles, but they are lenses of experience. They are experience.

8) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

This was brutally effective. As I mentioned in the beginning, I was a seeker for a long time. It wasn't until very recently that I was willing to see that this is all an illusion. Then I got that, and couldn't turn back, but chased my tail, journanling, trying to sit. The direct questions held my feet to the fire. They challenged me to be direct. Thank you.