I’m not sure

[CherylVT]

Dear Aussie,

Do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors?
How is that observed? Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?
Let me ask again, is there a seer who sees colour or just seeing?

Also, is there a clear boundary between seeing, hearing, tasting, etc?
Or just thought describes them as separate?
Can you separate the hearing from the seeing?
Even with your eyes closed you still see colour. Are there separate senses or just experiencing?


Love,
Cheryl

[Aussie]

Dear Cheryl

Do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors?

Yes this is true for survival purposes

How is that observed? Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?

Yes this is also true

Let me ask again, is there a seer who sees colour or just seeing?

Seeing doesn’t need a seer to see but self loves to comment on what’s been observed through the eyes

Also, is there a clear boundary between seeing, hearing, tasting, etc?

No clear boundary they all work together

Or just thought describes them as separate?

This is true

Can you separate the hearing from the seeing?
Even with your eyes closed you still see colour. Are there separate senses or just experiencing?

There is just experience

Kind regards Aussie

[CherylVT]

Dear Aussie,

Let's review these two questions:

Do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors?
How is that observed? Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?

Remember that we are undermining our assumptions.

How do you know that eyes exist? Ears? Mouth? Skin?

How do you know that eyes see? Ears hear? Mouth tastes? Skin feels?

Remember that your answer takes the form of Direct Experience:
seeing = color
hearing = sound
touch = sensation
smell
taste

Leaving thoughts aside, how do you know that the senses physically exist?

Take your time.

Love,
Cheryl

[Aussie]

Dear Cheryl

Do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors?
How is that observed? Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?

Yes it’s observed through the experience of seeing, hearing, tasting

How do you know that eyes exist? Ears? Mouth? Skin?

Through experience of sight, sound, taste, sensation

How do you know that eyes see? Ears hear? Mouth tastes? Skin feels?

This is known through experience

Leaving thoughts aside, how do you know that the senses physically exist?

Through experience

Kind regards Aussie

[CherylVT]

Dear Aussie,

I asked
Do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors?
How is that observed? Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?

And you replied:

Yes it’s observed through the experience of seeing, hearing, tasting

Please be very specific in your answer.
How is it observed?
Does seeing see the eye?
Does hearing hear the ear?
Does tasting taste the mouth? And what is "mouth" anyway?
Does touching touch skin? Does touching touch the inner sensations of pain, hunger, pulse, etc?

Notice the role of thought(s) in your answers.

Love,
Cheryl

[Aussie]

Dear Cheryl

Feeling very confused now not sure how to answer this, everything is known through experience not sure if you’re getting at that eyes, ears, mouth are just concepts? All I’m getting is confusion and frustration sorry.

Kindest regards Aussie

[CherylVT]

Dear Aussie,

This is a huge assumption that we are pulling the rug out from underneath: the body.

You said:

eyes, ears, mouth are just concepts

What if, what if that were true? What then?

Does inner seeing (mind images, dreams, etc) happen without the eyes? Yet, it's still "seeing."
Does inner hearing (what we usually call thinking or an earworm of a song) happen without the ears? Yet, it's still "hearing."

All I’m getting is confusion and frustration

Of course! That's a perfect description.

Perhaps we have reached a fork in the road. If you prefer to retain the delusion of ordinary seeing, you could take a breather from these conversations. We have been going double pace, often exchanging two emails a day here in the forum. That's intense.
Or we can continue to creep along via Direct Experience. Warning: the bottom may fall out--either suddenly (not common, but also not rare) or so gradually you barely notice it.
Another possibility: you can always ask for a new guide.

Relying on Direct Experience,
Do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors?
How is that observed? Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?


Perhaps go back and re-read the Goran Backlund pdf about Refuting the External World. It didn't make sense to you the first time, and maybe it still won't.

For now, and if you wish, choose just one of the following questions. Really look at one and only one sense door.
Please be very specific in your answer.
How is it observed?
Does seeing see the eye?
Does hearing hear the ear?
Does tasting taste the mouth? And what is "mouth" anyway?
Does touching touch skin? Does touching touch the inner sensations of pain, hunger, pulse, etc?

Notice the role of thought(s) in your answers.

Love,
Cheryl

[Aussie]

Dear Cheryl

I would very much like you to keep guiding me if that’s okay with you and id just like to thankyou at this point for all the time you have already spent on me, I’m very grateful.

Does inner seeing (mind images, dreams, etc) happen without the eyes? Yet, it's still "seeing."
Does inner hearing (what we usually call thinking or an earworm of a song) happen without the ears? Yet, it's still "hearing."

Yes this is true.

Does seeing see the eye?

No seeing does not see the eye because it is the eye, this is as specific as i can go because i don’t know how to conceptualise it I guess its the same as when people say you can’t find awareness with awareness hopefully one day i will understand what this means, my brain is always trying to figure this out (problem solver) but never seems to get anywhere. I have a feeling this can’t be solved by the mind and is more of a physical knowing perhaps.

Kind regards Aussie

[CherylVT]

Dear Aussie,

That's the spirit!
Thanks for your prompt reply.

i don’t know how to conceptualise it

Bingo!
We are in the land of no concepts, therefore, no conceptualizing! :)

Seeing sees. And that's about all we can say about that. It's a miracle and it's a mystery.

I have a feeling this can’t be solved by the mind and is more of a physical knowing.

Yes, that can happen, but in the meantime, we rely on what Direct Experience--the physical senses--report to us. So, back to work:
Really look at the sense gates.
Please be very specific in your answers.
How is seeing, hearing, touching perceived?
Does hearing hear the ear?
Does tasting taste the mouth? And what is "mouth" anyway?
Does touching touch skin? Does touching touch the inner sensations of pain, hunger, pulse, etc?

Notice the role of thought(s) in your answers.

Love,
Cheryl

[Aussie]

Dear Cheryl

How is seeing, hearing, touching perceived?
Does hearing hear the ear?
Does tasting taste the mouth? And what is "mouth" anyway?
Does touching touch skin? Does touching touch the inner sensations of pain, hunger, pulse, etc?

these things can’t be explained with words they all happen automatically by themselves.

Kind regards Aussie

[CherylVT]

Dear Aussie,

Let's return to some questions i asked on Sunday.

Is there a clear boundary between seeing, hearing, tasting, etc?
Or just thought describes them as separate?
Can you separate the hearing from the seeing?
Even with your eyes closed you still see colour. Are there separate senses or just experiencing?


Love,
Cheryl

[Aussie]

Dear Cheryl

Is there a clear boundary between seeing, hearing, tasting, etc?
Or just thought describes them as separate?
Can you separate the hearing from the seeing?
Even with your eyes closed you still see colour. Are there separate senses or just experiencing?

There is only experiencing as one except for the sense of self that makes it difficult to experience these senses fully.

Kind regards Aussie

[CherylVT]

Dear Aussie,

There is only experiencing as one except for the sense of self that makes it difficult to experience these senses fully.

This LU approach is based on the Bahiya sutta from the Pali Canon.

The Buddha said:
"Then, Bāhiya [or let's say Aussie],
you should train yourself thus:
In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen.
In reference to the heard, only the heard.
In reference to the sensed, only the sensed.
In reference to the cognized, only the cognized.
That is how you should train yourself.

When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen,
only the heard in reference to the heard,
only the sensed in reference to the sensed,
only the cognized in reference to the cognized,
then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that.

When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there.
When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.
This, just this, is the end of stress."

These instructions to Bahiya are our instructions for Direct Experience:
Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

the sense of self that makes it difficult to experience these senses fully.

arises from thoughts.

Stick closely to seeing, hearing, sensing.

So.
Let's return to one of the previous exercises:

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love,
Cheryl

[Aussie]

Dear Cheryl

Thankyou I’ll report back in a day or so. Hey just wondering what the success rate is of liberation im starting to worry it’s not possible for me to see the light(no self). Is there any extra tips or tricks?

Kind regards Aussie

[CherylVT]

Dear Aussie,

Use DE on worry.
e.g., thought, thought, thought

Use DE on "not possible for me".

Use DE on "I want to know" extra tips or tricks.
(or restate that so that it feels "right.")

Who is this me?
What is this me?
Where is this me?


Love,
Cheryl