The beginning of the end :)

[luckystarz]

Hey Jon

Ok. Thank you. If you and I reach any point at which there seems to be contradiction or confusion between what you're hearing there and here please let me know straight away? Even if it's just a vague contradiction?

I will let you know right away when I see something as contradicting, thank you for making that clear to be vigilant of.

That's my impression too but know that it is possible to miss the utter simplicity and obviousness of no self where expectations of something amazing, especially some amazing experience or outcome, are active.

I will keep this in mind, to be stepping into simplicity.

It's an invitation to take a look for what is labelled "mind". Where is this thing that, according to convention, is assumed to be "real" and "exist"?

There is an assumption made, it seems that what we are perceiving is real. It's like it's never been questioned by anything. ACIM also is teaching us that what we are seeing or perceiving isn't the truth. We see nothing as it is now.

Mind is labelled to be the "perceiver". I'm not sure it can actually be placed though. If I 'think' about where the awareness is coming from it's kinda of a strange assumption that it's in our head. It's actually witnessing the 'screen' in front of us. Not just with vision though. In apparent 'approximations' of 'distance' or 'time'. But even that, when being questioned begins to fall away. When beginning to ponder this, it begins to remove the concept of distance... I'm meant to be driving to a festival shortly after writing this, and actually the 'measure' of 'getting from here to there' is almost due to a belief in time and distance. Does that make any sense?

It can actually be almost a little frightening, but also cool, to be looking around the room as I write this, and question - is any of this real? Does it actually exist...Again as you mentioned it is assumed that it's real.

You're asking me?

Youve provided a reasoned interpretation of what you think or feel must be "doing" the waking up. But what if the waking up just happens ?

It was a question to see if I was on the right track.

Again, very interesting, if removing the idea of time and space (that's somehow crept into our talk today from this end). If the waking up just happens, then is there anything to do? Any effecting to 'see' a different way? Or to remember? What is there to do? haha but I see in your question - if it just happens, and there was no 'effecting', or even allowing. Just a difference of seeing perhaps? Or is that still even efforting? It seems a bit like walking around and around the edge of a black hole. Rather better to just fall in... :)

Yes,awareness of awareness. There can be that but looking at it, do I at core find some thing, entity or whatever that is experiencing awareness?

Is there an experiencer of experience ? (It's an oddly worded question isn't it?)

Wow ok, so this reminds me of some lucid dream that I experienced a couple of years back, where the experiencer looked into a broken mirror - to see no reflection at all - it was pieces of mirror which the experiencer was looking back at but with no reflection. Not sure why this comes to mind. An experiencer of experience - seems to turn into what is just happening is just happening. If we come from it that it is experiencing... and that is simply it. Thought / perception becomes very quiet.

Fascinating stuff

Best wishes
Tom

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

. Mind is labelled to be the "perceiver". I'm not sure it can actually be placed though. If I 'think' about where the awareness is coming from it's kinda of a strange assumption that it's in our head. It's actually witnessing the 'screen' in front of us. Not just with vision though. In apparent 'approximations' of 'distance' or 'time'. But even that, when being questioned begins to fall away. When beginning to ponder this, it begins to remove the concept of distance... I'm meant to be driving to a festival shortly after writing this, and actually the 'measure' of 'getting from here to there' is almost due to a belief in time and distance. Does that make any sense?

Yes it does.

Since you mention the screen in front of you , here is an exercise that is often interesting. Do do it for real though, rather than answering from supposition...

The words on this screen are seen. Conventionally is is said that it is 'eyes' or 'the body' that is doing the seeing. Let's explore this.

Right here and now the words on this screen are seen. But what is it that is doing the seeing? Is it "eyes", "the body", even "the brain" ? Examine what the experience is like directly. What is happening? Is there an experience of "eyes seeing"? Is seeing just happening?

. It can actually be almost a little frightening, but also cool, to be looking around the room as I write this, and question - is any of this real? Does it actually exist...Again as you mentioned it is assumed that it's real.

Yes! It can seem unnerving to look at this, but interesting. What if "the room" disappears when you're not looking in its direction? There's no longer a direct experience (of it) so is "it" still "there"?

"Self" is like this, except,in the case of self, is it ever possible to turn towards that and actually see it?

. haha but I see in your question - if it just happens, and there was no 'effecting', or even allowing. Just a difference of seeing perhaps? Or is that still even efforting? It seems a bit like walking around and around the edge of a black hole. Rather better to just fall in... :)

Perhaps that is already happening? Except that thinking creates the idea of a thinker or "mind" that could need to "fall in" or "hold back".

. Wow ok, so this reminds me of some lucid dream that I experienced a couple of years back, where the experiencer looked into a broken mirror - to see no reflection at all - it was pieces of mirror which the experiencer was looking back at but with no reflection. Not sure why this comes to mind. An experiencer of experience - seems to turn into what is just happening is just happening. If we come from it that it is experiencing... and that is simply it. Thought / perception becomes very quiet.

Yes! Right. This just happening thing is significant.

I love your lucid dream description. I had something similar a while back. In it it suddenly became clear that the dream was lucid and that I could do anything, fly, visit other worlds or whatever.. There was a pause as these options were considered but what was most interesting was the possibility of looking to see in this dream dimension for anything resembling a self. The outcome was rather similar too! Nothing there.

All best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

How is it going?

Jon

[JonathanR]

We could get on to considering "choice' and "decision' if you're ready?

[luckystarz]

Hey Jon

We could get on to considering "choice' and "decision' if you're ready?

Yes that would be awesome!

Right here and now the words on this screen are seen. But what is it that is doing the seeing? Is it "eyes", "the body", even "the brain" ? Examine what the experience is like directly. What is happening? Is there an experience of "eyes seeing"? Is seeing just happening?

An interesting exercise indeed. It’s a perceiving or a viewing. There is an element of ‘engagement’ in choosing to read or understand deeper, or just to glaze over words or meaning a bit too. But even that could be like ‘this time is glazing the words, not taking in the meaning, and the next time, it’s like an ‘understanding’ which can happen. It’s almost like moving through layers or engagement or understand. But then backing up from that, backing away from the ‘understanding’ there is just text. There is a happening.


So yes there is a perception of ‘engaging or trying’ which can come and go. Which is almost more like commentary. It becomes very interesting when it’s like ‘what if I try to think where I am going to look next’ - the unpredictably of it is quite apparent though this.

What if "the room" disappears when you're not looking in its direction? There's no longer a direct experience (of it) so is "it" still "there"?

"Self" is like this, except,in the case of self, is it ever possible to turn towards that and actually see it?

If the room disappears - somehow that’s absolutely fine lol. Something I’ve long suspected or questioned anyway. :)

So is it still there? I don’t know. But it appears in a ‘memory bank’ of where ‘home’ is. Or where someone else lives. All of it is a perception of direction or memory. Rather than physical form per se.

And to turn towards the self? To turn inwards and realise that there is peace. Beyond all the ‘memories’ or tasks to ‘be done’ or anything else. When sitting and being - it’s not a ‘self’ it’s an awareness. An experiencer experiencing. Not even watching. But being.

Perhaps that is already happening? Except that thinking creates the idea of a thinker or "mind" that could need to "fall in" or "hold back".

Yes it’s like - ok - it’s the thought which keeps us separate. Keeps us ‘broken’ or ‘sad’ or that there is something to do. The mind / thinking - creates that split. That divide. But there is no division in the place you are talking about. There is no where to go. Nothing to fix.

the dream was lucid and that I could do anything, fly, visit other worlds or whatever.. There was a pause as these options were considered but what was most interesting was the possibility of looking to see in this dream dimension for anything resembling a self. The outcome was rather similar too! Nothing there.

Yes in terms of my lucid dreams also it was like ‘you think it an it’s possible’ and when you interact in the dream to see something ‘scary’ and then you go, you aren’t scary, and it transforms into something nice or the fear just disappears. It’s a realm of illusions shifting based on how or what is being chosen. It’s like ‘oh I’ve got a long way to walk down from this river across that valley’ oh wait I can just muster a boat, and then when the river stops. I could fly the rest. A few of these experiences was like just being in a dream land where there is the illusion - and there are choices where instantaneously ‘form’ or ‘ideas’ shift.

But yes! Onwards with you ‘Choice and decision’ questions!

Best
Tom

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

I have to admit that I've been suddenly struck with a nasty cold which is felt throughout the body and is kind of messing things up.

Thoughts are racing so that focus is not good. I need to feel better before I reply or ask further questions.

This may only take a day or it may take a few days.

Also we had planned to go camping and we still may do that , with my wife driving. So you may not hear back from me very quickly but I. promise to post as soon as possible and hopefully in a day or two.

Thanks for your patience. If you like, explore colour perception. Take a single coloured object such as a red cup. Set it up nearby so that it is seen.
Relax and without making any special effort whatsoever just notice the colour.

This is experienced, right? It's not imagined. if it's blue then that's the colour, that's what's seen? Ok?

Let's say it's a blue cup. Now, is the blue colour separate from the experience of it? (Notice the wording I have used).

Give this a few moments or goes. It can be subtle or it can smack you in the face. :-)


Jon

[luckystarz]

Hey Jon,

Sorry to hear about the cold! Hope that passes.

Will await to hear more from you.

In terms of the colour experiencing - I’ll be trying that out!
Thanks
Tom

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

How did the colour experiment go?

Ok. "Choices"

We investigate how "choices" happen. Is it possible to home in on and notice a chooser choosing?

Place both hands on table in front of you, palms facing down. In a minute one of these hands must be raised right up into the air whilst the other must remain face down on the table.

This is normally thought about as a "choice" made, between alternatives.

So now ,as you try this out , watch for the "choice point", the exact moment of choosing. What happens?

Is it possible to observe the choice being made? Is that what makes one hand go up in the air?

It can help to do this with eyes closed.

Tell me how it goes?

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hey Tom.

How is it going?

Are you finding time to look at what I asked?

I don't want to chase you up. It isn't appropriate. It's only your own inquisitiveness and motivation that can make your inquiry here work.

All the best

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hey Jon

This is experienced, right? It's not imagined. if it's blue then that's the colour, that's what's seen? Ok?

Let's say it's a blue cup. Now, is the blue colour separate from the experience of it? (Notice the wording I have used).

Yes I did this with a pink box. And yes I saw pink. Don't quite understand why you moved from red cup to blue cup though? Not sure if this was a deliberate switch here. But when you say is the colour separate from the experience of it, I would say no, it's all part of the same screen of vision, and it sits their in the observation - it is a part of the whole collective field of vision if that makes sense. There's no separation between the colour and the background. But not sure if I got this in terms of is the colour separate from the experience? More that its simply a label of perception, pink, blue, red, its 'labels' of what is happening. Picking out things.

We investigate how "choices" happen. Is it possible to home in on and notice a chooser choosing?

It's the thought which seems to 'think' it decides when it will happen, or 'make it happen' but in the seeing - it is just happening.

The mind was thinking which ones it guna be, what's the reason for raising it, it is trying to anticipate when it will happen. But it actually can't know. Other than in the awareness of 'doing an exercise' it's like the mind says there is an inevitability that a hand will raise. I did this in an outdoor cafe. And waited and waited for a minute or so. And at one point it just happened. The mind was also sensing which one will be easier to raise apparently. When one will look like it's pulling more attention.. story story story. But all that's really perceived is that an arm will raise at some point. but there was no way to 'know' which one was chosen in this exercise. Unless of course the mind 'chooses' to 'deliberately' do it, but there is a seeing there that that is also the mind 'commentating' or trying to predict what will simply happen. But yeah doing this in an exercise there is the 'expectation' at some point it will happen. That's the only constant.

When the noise of the predictability also subsided interestingly it just happened. But with no idea which side it was going to be!


A very interesting thing to play with.

Tom

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

. Not sure if this was a deliberate switch here.

Yes, sorry. I should've stuck to one or other colour. No it wasn't a deliberate switch but slightly absent-minded nonetheless. I had Covid that evening.

. But when you say is the colour separate from the experience of it, I would say no, it's all part of the same screen of vision, and it sits their in the observation - it is a part of the whole collective field of vision if that makes sense.

It does.

This exercise is one that can help to reveal that there is no separation between a "perceiver" and that which is "perceived". And indeed the "act of perceiving".

Colour is very helpful in this. When seeing "pink" (of the pink box), is it possible to fit a credit card between pinkness and the experience of it ? And yet it is often said that there is separation between a "subject" ("me") and an "object".

. . I did this in an outdoor cafe. And waited and waited for a minute or so. And at one point it just happened. The mind was also sensing which one will be easier to raise apparently. When one will look like it's pulling more attention.. story story story.

Very well done! Yes, plenty of thoughts ABOUT how it will happen, which hand will raise and so on, but at some point it does just happen. No chooser found, as such. So what "causes" one arm to raise? Is it possible to know ?

. When the noise of the predictability also subsided interestingly it just happened. But with no idea which side it was going to be!

Yes that is kind of fascinating.

"Decisions" are related. Like "choices" these appear to be made many times per day. Let's look into these.

In a couple of minutes go and make a drink of some sort. Notice how it all goes. Then, afterwords, return here and look at the following questions :

Was it noticed that a decision was made to get a drink?

Were decisions taken about standing up and using muscles in particular order in order to "walk" to the fridge or kitchen?

Was a decision taken about which drink to have?

What,about pouring? Did decisions about how to pour happen ?

Was it decided to return to this screen to look at questions?

Sometimes it can seem that someone decides to do something and then later it can seem that "I decided to do it". For example, a trip to a paint shop is made to buy paint and it can be argued "nobody else decided to go to buy paint and here is the tin now". Such an example can seem tricky and it can take a few investigations to reveal what's really going on in such situations.

For example, car keys are missing. They must be found. Searching ensues and car keys are found. Later it can be imagined that "I decided to find car keys".

Play with "decisions".

All the best

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hi Jon

Colour is very helpful in this. When seeing "pink" (of the pink box), is it possible to fit a credit card between pinkness and the experience of it ? And yet it is often said that there is separation between a "subject" ("me") and an "object".

No there appears to be no 'room' between the pinkness or redness, on a phone case for example. There is just the red. Or the pink. Or the yellow.

So what "causes" one arm to raise? Is it possible to know ?

The cause could be argued to be the 'request' to do so - i.e. completing the exercise. That could be the trigger of the apparent action.
Is it possible to know? - when, for example - no its not. There is an inevitability it will happen. But not possible to predict when. The only thing that happens is the mind try to 'predict it' or even 'prevent it' but it still happens.

Was it noticed that a decision was made to get a drink?

No decision was made like 'ok ill go and make the drink now' but the action is occurring, since as mentioned above, its an exercise requested... that is the only happening occurring, fulfilling an exercise.

Were decisions taken about standing up and using muscles in particular order in order to "walk" to the fridge or kitchen?

No not remotely here. No talk or thought of 'oh ill just open the fridge door now'

Was a decision taken about which drink to have?

The mind likes to think so here, i.e. "I'll choose this turmeric chai drink, rather than something else" so there could be a 'perception' of which drink to choose. But again, it's a commentary / an attempt to predict / or prove / a desire to control or know. But the drink was selected nether the less.

What,about pouring? Did decisions about how to pour happen ?

No, that just happened.

Was it decided to return to this screen to look at questions?

Again, there is perception of a decision, due to fulfilling a request or task. But there isn't essentially a decision being made. It just has apparently happened again! lol

For example, car keys are missing. They must be found. Searching ensues and car keys are found. Later it can be imagined that "I decided to find car keys".

The two things which seem to be a constant is the 'happening' of whatever it is. And the 'commentary' of it. Commentary is there at points, but the happening is always just happening. Its more like the commentary just likes to chime in, or 'remind' or 'opinionate'

Very interesting to get into observing this... and to step out of the 'chatter/debate' of what is occurring.
Very interesting to discern if any decision is being made ever. Or it's just what's happening. and the above mentioned commentary is just thinking it knows what's happening or is busy predicting / judging etc

Cheers!
T

[JonathanR]

Hey Tom

Great work! Both in the colour exercise and on "decisions"

. The two things which seem to be a constant is the 'happening' of whatever it is. And the 'commentary' of it. Commentary is there at points, but the happening is always just happening. Its more like the commentary just likes to chime in, or 'remind' or 'opinionate'

That's so true isn't it? Happenings happen and then there's the commentary "saying" things :-)

And it's also interesting that thoughts can't be created or prevented from appearing

. Very interesting to get into observing this... and to step out of the 'chatter/debate' of what is occurring.
Very interesting to discern if any decision is being made ever. Or it's just what's happening. and the above mentioned commentary is just thinking it knows what's happening or is busy predicting / judging etc

Yes. And I think it will be very helpful for you to spend a few days just noticing all this going on.

The predicting and judging thing is interesting too. Predicting implies a 'future' and maybe also the idea of an unchanging "self" that will "do" things, or judging what has already happened in a "past".

All best

Jon

[luckystarz]

Hey Jon

Ok will do a few days of ‘noticing’!

Noticing the happening, and the commentating.
And the noticing of a ‘self’ in terms of future and past!

Cheers
T

[JonathanR]

Great.

Speak soon

J