Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

Here, we are alluding to a new relationship with out thoughts.
What might that be?

Thoughts are not real. On a "relationship" level withdrawing attention from thought, instead putting attention more on experience.

Giving thoughts less importance and attention. Which is also a thought appearing on the dimensionless screen of consciousness, unrelated, undivided.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Govinda,

the dimensionless screen of consciousness, unrelated, undivided.

Is this from your own experience, or something to read about?

withdrawing attention from thought, instead putting attention more on experience.

This sounds like hard work. I'll bet with willpower that you wouldn't be successful with this for more than seconds. A much more skilful way to approach this is to reward the recognition that you've been sucked into thoughts when it happens. Reward it with a laugh.

with love

vince

[Govinda]

the dimensionless screen of consciousness, unrelated, undivided.

Is this from your own experience, or something to read about?

Both, Sometimes it is fehlt and obvious, sometimes not.

withdrawing attention from thought, instead putting attention more on experience.

This sounds like hard work. I'll bet with willpower that you wouldn't be successful with this for more than seconds. A much more skilful way to approach this is to reward the recognition that you've been sucked into thoughts when it happens. Reward it with a laugh.

That sounds good. Willpower is not the way I guess. Not being too serious about thoughts might be a healthy relationship. Doing the laughing

[Govinda]

Both, Sometimes it is fehlt and obvious, sometimes not.

Sorry Auto correction.
Sometimes experienced, mostly not.

[vinceschubert]

G'day Govinda,

Not being too serious about thoughts might be a healthy relationship. Doing the laughing

excellent!
Story here is, that there are a couple of percent of our thoughts that are useful, so let's not treat them as the enemy. I would describe my relationship with thoughts as friendly. Friendly in a way that a really good friend can be told to shut up and they will do it without taking offence.
When I'm asked if I have periods of no thoughts, I have to answer "that I don't know". Experience here is that there might be thoughts flowing in the background that I take no notice of, so if asked what they are about, I couldn't say.

with love

vince
PS I missed you at the meet up this morning.

[Govinda]

G'day Govinda,

Not being too serious about thoughts might be a healthy relationship. Doing the laughing

excellent!
Story here is, that there are a couple of percent of our thoughts that are useful, so let's not treat them as the enemy. I would describe my relationship with thoughts as friendly. Friendly in a way that a really good friend can be told to shut up and they will do it without taking offence.
When I'm asked if I have periods of no thoughts, I have to answer "that I don't know". Experience here is that there might be thoughts flowing in the background that I take no notice of, so if asked what they are about, I couldn't say.

with love

vince
PS I missed you at the meet up this morning.

Hi there. Sorry for the delayed answer. I have been on a Satsang Retreat the last week which was quite intense. There happened also trauma work but already feels like back to normal again...

Can the who or what that we normally call the self be anything other than a concept?

No

As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?

Only seeing

[Govinda]

You tell me what I should say? (seriously)

What is Enlightenment?

[Govinda]

Hi Govinda, tell me what needs to happen for you to be awake?

Nothing. what is is already awake.

[Govinda]

is it possible to see that there is no self, whilst still having a belief that there is one?

guess not

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sebastian, Ok, Let’s run through these questions and see if there’s anywhere that needs further investigation to be clear on the 'breaking' of the first two fetters.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

vince

[Govinda]

Not Sure if I am ready for these questions yet. Illusion is still strong here. Getting entangled with thoughts pretty much.

[Govinda]

From the perspective of the organism (which is the perspective for ALL our investigation) is an objects existence only in thought?

Yes

[Govinda]

Making decisions soaked attention very deep into story today. That seemed to appear the doer very real again evoking fest and doubt. How do decisions happen without making them? The Decider appears very strong here.

[Govinda]

Making decisions soaked attention very deep into story today. That seemed to appear the doer very real again evoking fest and doubt. How do decisions happen without making them? The Decider appears very strong here.

Sorry for the misspelling. Auto correction making me crazy here.
In fact the decider seems to be believed very much here supported by huge amaount of fear. How to unveil the idea of being the decider and contoler of what is happening in life?

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Sebastian,

Sorry for the misspelling. Auto correction making me crazy here.

Don't worry about this. i can work it out or i'll ask you.

In fact the decider seems to be believed very much here supported by huge amaount of fear.

Ah, the decider IS the constructed self. The armour to protect you from all of the monsters that conditioning has instilled. That fear is not your enemy. It is the organism's best solution, given that it doesn't have any other tools and given how real those monsters seem.

How to unveil the idea of being the decider and contoler of what is happening in life?

We don't need to get rid of the "decider and controller". They have a useful role. We simply need to see that the illusion is not anything actual. That way we stop responding to the story in a compulsive way.
Others will still imagine that you are deciding and controlling, only you will know that it's perception only.

Making decisions soaked attention very deep into story today.

Ok, that's fine. That's not the issue. The ONLY thing that is relevant is DID YOU NOTICE IT, and did you laugh when you saw it had happened? Don't gloss over these words. Let them sink in. - What is important here?

That seemed to appear the doer very real again evoking fest and doubt.

Rephrase this to say that the illusion was strong..

How do decisions happen without making them?

The answer is the same for any happening.
..and that is that it's in the realm of quantum physics, so for our puny mind it is unknowable.
For practical purposes, they just happen.
Here's a story that might give the mind some satisfaction.
A useful concept is conditions. For the sake of satisfying mind, we can say that any event requires the conditions that enable it. For example, for me to be here typing these squiggles on a screen, an obviously necessary condition is the presence of the computer. Consider the conditions required for a computer to come into existence.
Another condition is that this organism has to have experiences that include schooling.
Going back further, another condition is that my parents conceived me. ..and the conditions required that meant that they themselves were conceived and had all of their life experiences exactly as they did to be able to have and raise me exactly as they did.
If we follow this line then we can extrapolate back to every ancestor and the conditions that enabled them to not only procreate but to provide the conditions for their offspring to do the same.
In order to be born, i needed:
2 parents
4 grandparents
8 great-grandparents
16 second great-grandparents
32 third great-grandparents
64 fourth great-grandparents
128 fifth great-grandparents
256 sixth great-grandparents
512 seventh great-grandparents
1,024 eighth great-grandparents
2,048 ninth great-grandparents
For you to be born today from 12 previous generations,
i needed a total of 4,094 ancestors over the last 400
years. ..and of course this goes back to the beginning of existence.
If we go back hundreds of generations, we can even say that some of the conditions required were the food and shelter that enabled them to provide future generations with the necessary conditions.
That food required conditions to exist.
Even the butterfly in the Amazon is tied in with conditions necessary for me to be here doing this.
In fact, there is no thing, no event, no anything since the beginning of existence (& maybe before this) that isn't a necessary condition for this happening.
Change any one condition and this would be different.
As profound as this is, it is not saying that these conditions are part of something. It's like a hologram. The total is made up of totals. Every (apparent) part is everything. A single piece of stardust floating galaxies away is a necessary condition for THIS.
Nothing stands alone. Everything is connected. All is One.
..and as good as all this sounds, it's just a story.

Not Sure if I am ready for these questions yet. Illusion is still strong here. Getting entangled with thoughts pretty much.

Ok, go through them and list the areas where there is doubt and we'll concentrate on them.

with love

vince