an occurrence of the hole removed from the donut

[Bluejay]

Here you go. Enjoy!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[mpaul3]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a tenacious habit of thought that claims ownership of the experiences of the body-mind organism. There is a 'me' sense, again a style of subtle thought, that seems to sit, a priori, in the background of experience. Before the illusion is unmasked that 'me' sense seems like the ground of experience. But, when that illusion is dissolved, the 'me' sense can be discerned as what it is, thought. And, with inquiry, thought is seen to be rootless, arising from nowhere, and from no one. When the 'self' first dissolved a space of openness, presence, pure awareness came to the fore. It now seems that that openness is the ground of life's unfolding, of the happening of this life's thoughts, sensations and feelings.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Through this process of guided inquiry the rootlessness of experience has become quite clear. Really examining thoughts as they arise and seeing that they are not 'owned' but simply appearances in open awareness has stabilized. I started this process soon after having had a clear experience of 'self' being dissolved, and I take that as the starting point, the dawning of no-self. It is interesting how something falling away that never really existed has had some profound effects on how this life happens. Two important aspects of my life changed (and many other things, too): (1) I've had a regular meditation practice for many years which involved some doing – counting breaths, labeling thoughts and sensations, etc. Without any thought of doing or changing anything meditation spontaneously became just sitting in being. Practice became no practice. (2) Life happens pretty much as it has been but without the pronounced reactivity. An ease tends to be the underlying flavor of experience. 'I' am not threatened, don't need to react, because 'I' isn't there. That 'me' sense function of thinking has dissolved.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was the examination of doubt and the inquiry into the expectations around 'enlightement' that locked it in. I've been a life-long seeker with a huge bundle of thoughts and imaginings about what enlightenment/awakening would be and a keen desire for it to happen. A lot of that, especially from youth to middle age was spiritual bypassing, just wanting to escape a trauma influenced life. This dramatically changed about 25 years ago when I spent a good deal of time over several years sitting with Ramesh Balsekar. Balsekar's pointers lead me to a clear intellectual understanding of no free will, and that the final understanding is not a personal achievement or prize, but the removal of the sense of personal doership. Much of my anxiety about 'enlightenment' disappeared. But there were still some expectations, and those expectations brought some hesitation to fully accepting the dissolving of the 'self'. But inquiring into those doubts and expectations revealed their emptiness, that the doubt and expectations were just thoughts without basis.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

First of all, it is quite clear that life as a whole and in all of its apparent parts happens, unfolds, and flows. There is a mind-body object, a person, a human construction that functions as an aspect of life's happening. There is no unchanging self at the core of this person who thinks, has free will, makes decisions, or controls this life. When we know that thought arises from emptiness, and that we have absolutely no idea or control over what thoughts may arise, how can there be any free will or control. This person is an ongoing happening in relationship to the infinitely varied happenings of countless other happenings. Certainly the person thinks and acts, there is the appearance of choosing, of controlling, thoughts about preferences and aversions. But whether or not things happen according to those decisions, preferences, aversions, has nothing to do with them. I think of taking a walk, or a swim, or having breakfast. One, or none, of those things may happen. If one does the 'me' sense may claim responsibility. The 'me' sense is still around, another habit of thought that occurs now and then, but with very little weight. The person 'Mark' continues to function, respond, unfold as a happening. Thinking happens and seems somewhat localized to this mind-body organism, as do sensations and feelings. But the hold of the tenacious 'me' is gone. The weight of 'self' has dissolved and an openness persists in its place.

6) Anything to add? The dissolving of 'self' occurred one morning a couple of months ago. Through a totally unrelated connection I was pointed to LU and began the inquiry process. The life of this person is substantially as it was before the dawning of no-self. But the ground on which it unfolds seems truer, less encumbered, less anxious in fundamental ways. The generosity and insight afforded by my guide Henri has been a most wonderful gift the happening of life.

[mpaul3]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a tenacious habit of thought that claims ownership of the experiences of the body-mind organism. There is a 'me' sense, again a style of subtle thought, that seems to sit, a priori, in the background of experience. Before the illusion is unmasked that 'me' sense seems like the ground of experience. But, when that illusion is dissolved, the 'me' sense can be discerned as what it is, thought. And, with inquiry, thought is seen to be rootless, arising from nowhere, and from no one. When the 'self' first dissolved a space of openness, presence, pure awareness came to the fore. It now seems that that openness is the ground of life's unfolding, of the happening of this life's thoughts, sensations and feelings.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Through this process of guided inquiry the rootlessness of experience has become quite clear. Really examining thoughts as they arise and seeing that they are not 'owned' but simply appearances in open awareness has stabilized. I started this process soon after having had a clear experience of 'self' being dissolved, and I take that as the starting point, the dawning of no-self. It is interesting how something falling away that never really existed has had some profound effects on how this life happens. Two important aspects of my life changed (and many other things, too): (1) I've had a regular meditation practice for many years which involved some doing – counting breaths, labeling thoughts and sensations, etc. Without any thought of doing or changing anything meditation spontaneously became just sitting in being. Practice became no practice. (2) Life happens pretty much as it has been but without the pronounced reactivity. An ease tends to be the underlying flavor of experience. 'I' am not threatened, don't need to react, because 'I' isn't there. That 'me' sense function of thinking has dissolved.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was the examination of doubt and the inquiry into the expectations around 'enlightement' that locked it in. I've been a life-long seeker with a huge bundle of thoughts and imaginings about what enlightenment/awakening would be and a keen desire for it to happen. A lot of that, especially from youth to middle age was spiritual bypassing, just wanting to escape a trauma influenced life. This dramatically changed about 25 years ago when I spent a good deal of time over several years sitting with Ramesh Balsekar. Balsekar's pointers lead me to a clear intellectual understanding of no free will, and that the final understanding is not a personal achievement or prize, but the removal of the sense of personal doership. Much of my anxiety about 'enlightenment' disappeared. But there were still some expectations, and those expectations brought some hesitation to fully accepting the dissolving of the 'self'. But inquiring into those doubts and expectations revealed their emptiness, that the doubt and expectations were just thoughts without basis.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

First of all, it is quite clear that life as a whole and in all of its apparent parts happens, unfolds, and flows. There is a mind-body object, a person, a human construction that functions as an aspect of life's happening. There is no unchanging self at the core of this person who thinks, has free will, makes decisions, or controls this life. When we know that thought arises from emptiness, and that we have absolutely no idea or control over what thoughts may arise, how can there be any free will or control. This person is an ongoing happening in relationship to the infinitely varied happenings of countless other happenings. Certainly the person thinks and acts, there is the appearance of choosing, of controlling, thoughts about preferences and aversions. But whether or not things happen according to those decisions, preferences, aversions, has nothing to do with them. I think of taking a walk, or a swim, or having breakfast. One, or none, of those things may happen. If one does the 'me' sense may claim responsibility. The 'me' sense is still around, another habit of thought that occurs now and then, but with very little weight. The person 'Mark' continues to function, respond, unfold as a happening. Thinking happens and seems somewhat localized to this mind-body organism, as do sensations and feelings. But the hold of the tenacious 'me' is gone. The weight of 'self' has dissolved and an openness persists in its place.

6) Anything to add?

The dissolving of 'self' occurred one morning a couple of months ago. Through a totally unrelated connection I was pointed to LU and began the inquiry process. The life of this person is substantially as it was before the dawning of no-self. But the ground on which it unfolds seems truer, less encumbered, less anxious in fundamental ways. The generosity and insight afforded by my guide Henri has been a most wonderful gift the happening of life.

[Bluejay]

Thanks Mark!

I've shared your answers with other guides to see if there are any questions or feedback.

I'll be back, usually within 24-48 hours :)

[Bluejay]

That went fast. No one had any questions.

You will be contacted by the admin shortly with an invitation to the FB group and other goodies.

Now for those resources:

A great deepening resource is https://perfectlyokay.org/ - email Patti for access. You'll need to go through a free mini course, but other than that there are no requirements. There's a 10 fetters group there that is excellent. There are also recordings of past meetings available that I recommend you check out.

Then there's the 10 fetters group on Facebook. It is invite only. I can send you an invite if you're interested.

There's also a website I highly recommend: https://www.simplytheseen.com/

I'll also send you a private message here on the forum with my email if you want to get in touch or stay in touch.

We're done here!