Feet first (or should it be head first?)

[jrm72]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of this is intellectual not experiential, but with that caveat and coming from my current dual perspective -
I am searching for peace of mind.
There seems to be a lots of schools of thought saying this is possible through non-dual awareness.
A guide giving instructions may help.
My 'self' seems to be part of the problem.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm not sure, both from the perspective of what I need and what it is possible for you to provide.
Best case scenario - An insightful teacher (guide) says exactly what I need to hear, in the right way at the right time, and this allows me to have a glimpse of the fallacy of self. What happens from there, I hope to find out.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like a wise, kind, aware and insightful guide who will provide the right challenges and questions. I expect the conversations will at times be difficult for me, hopefully not overwhelmingly so.
I expect the conversations to be thought provoking. But maybe in this context I should be saying experientially provoking.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have studied and read psychology from Freud to Jon Kabat Zinn.
I have meditated (mainly mindfulness) on and off for 30+ years.
I have explored Buddhism.
I have attended satsangs.
I have read and practiced a wide range of systems, that supposedly offered ways of enlightenment, from the golden dawn system of magic, to Sam Harris (Waking Up), and lots in between.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

I don't know about "wise, kind, aware" but people do wake up with this guidance. I tend to focus more on the doing of pointers, not on conversing, because that is just more intellectualizing, and what is needed is to simply LOOK.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.


Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

I'm in Colorado,US, in Mountain Time.

Loving,

[jrm72]

Hello Stacy,

Thank you for the quick reply. Yes I would like to take up your offer of being my guide.

I will post everyday.

intellectualizing

One of my habits.

read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it.

Yes I confirm I have read it.

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

Yes I have read it.

How will life change?

As with all four of these questions the straight up answer is I don't know.
But I do hope that seeing reality clearly will have some benefits.
I await to see what they are.

How will you change?

Calmer on the inside and hopefully that shows on the outside too.

What will be different?

My understanding of the world.

What is missing?

Emotional stability. But really it's more the existence of a feeling of unease and what feels
like it's missing, is the evasive solution to this unease.

What would you like for me to call you?

James

What time zone are you in, please?

I am in Suffolk, in the East of England.
Which makes my time zone the same as London (GMT).

J🖖

[Anastacia42]

Hi James,

True, we don't really know. Yes, it's likely you'll be calmer, but not everyone is.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[jrm72]

Hi Stacy,

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

What comes up first for me is a blank feeling, maybe disbelief. Then feelings of wanting to argue against the idea of no self, then thoughts of it can't be true because everythings seems to revolve around my self.
Without intellectualising too much, it seems to me there's more evidence for a self than against it.

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

Most of my thoughts are random and many problematic, but can't I salvage some thoughts as at least useful?

J🖖

[Anastacia42]

can't I salvage some thoughts as at least useful?

Thoughts will still be there, but that's not where we see no self. And we do not believe what thoughts say.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[jrm72]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Further clarification in respect of -

I agree and understand your coloured sock example.

But is it not the content of seeing, hearing etc, that provides me with the information to be certain of.
And if that is so, why do we dismiss the content of thought only?

🖖

[Anastacia42]

But is it not the content of seeing, hearing etc, that provides me with the information to be certain of.
And if that is so, why do we dismiss the content of thought only?

Because that's where the illusions are.

All content of thought is made up. Not real

This includes sense of self

Do the first 3 or 4 pointers with me & maybe you'll understand. I will not ask you to believe anything you cannot clearly SEE and experience for yourself.

Here is the first one:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[jrm72]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Lunch

Seeing a glass, simply= image/color
Smelling a flower, simply = smell
Feeling the coolness of the glass, simply = sensation
Tasting the salad, simply = taste
Hearing the crunching of my chewing, simply = sound
Thought about doing this exercise, simply = thought



Washing the dog

Seeing a dog, simply= image/color
Smelling shampoo, simply = smell
Feeling fur, simply = sensation
Tasting splashes on my lips, simply = taste
Hearing water running, simply = sound
Thought about doing the shampooing, simply = thought



Ironing

Seeing an ironing hoard, simply= image/color
Smelling warm moist air, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth and weight of the iron, simply = sensation
Tasting warm moist air, simply = taste
Hearing the steam emitted from the iron, simply = sound
Thought about accidentally brushing my hand on the hotplate, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Yes, exactly.

Now remember, these are not about getting correct answers. Pay attention to how it FEELS to see this way.

Here is the next one:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[jrm72]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Not sure about truer, but the second feels more immediate, closer.

2. What is here without labels?

All the same stuff, maybe more, because I don't have labels for everything and I'm able to notice more, because my mind isn't wasting time and being distracted by labelling things.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

My answer to this surprised me as I wrote it out -
Labels affect the experience by narrowing my focus for a moment to the things that get labelled.
The label also restricts the scope of the experience and seems to have some sort of dismissive effect, like I've labelled it so it doesn't matter as much anymore or I move to deal with whatever's been labelled.
Labelling can also have the opposite effect, bringing focus to something and making the labelled experience more, or the most, important thing, and then it fills my awareness.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I seemed to have more time to notice the body.
On reflection I think I felt closer to my body.



J🖖

[Anastacia42]

Okay, good. Two things, I know what you mean about labels, but we're going for something a bit different.

Try this:

Here is an exercise that makes it clearer that labels are not the things they refer to. They are merely the content of thought that we made up.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


So, that's one. The other is about truth & lies. I'll post that separately.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[jrm72]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Seeing red

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Red colour is experienced, the word green adds confusion.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

No

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Confusion in the inherent contradiction between green and red.

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color;

No

or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

Yes, but because it is an obvious contradiction my thoughts become confused.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Although I still see red, I'm less aware of the experience of red and predominantly aware of the meaning of the words, good & bad.

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Redness does not become good or bad, but there is a subtle effect on my reaction/understanding of my experience of the redness of the label.
The labels have no effect on reality, but for want of better words, they have an effect on my version of reality.


J🖖

[jrm72]

I'll post my response to the truth and lies exercise tomorrow.