Harmonie

[Laubfrosch]

Hello Atmajnani,

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?
If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

No, they appeared by themselves as thought. Also the preferences just pop up by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No, there was no ‘choosing’. When starting to count, the other thoughts disappeared. After counting there where thoughts about the preference again.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

There was only the choose. No chooser. The thoughts only comment the choose. There was also no feeling.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

It seems that your insights about direct experience, thoughts and control, decision and choices are clear.
If you feel you need to clarify anything, let me know.

Let's now look at these additional questions and then we will start the inquiry of separation and body boundaries.

1. Can you see a 'self' making you leave the bed? Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

2. Can 'you' choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment/ point /spot or realm where 'you' choose to fall asleep?

3. Can 'you' choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction, etc) of the physical sensation that will arise next?

4. Can 'you' choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice-point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

5. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself.
Do 'you' move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something 'you' control? What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hello Atmajnani,

It seems that your insights about direct experience, thoughts and control, decision and choices are clear. If you feel you need to clarify anything, let me know.

Actually not 😊

1. Can you see a 'self' making you leave the bed? Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

No, there is no “self” and no “decision”. Sometimes there are thoughts, which comment the getting up. But they can’t force the body to get up. It’s like an inner drive or wish which says “get up”.

2. Can 'you' choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment/ point /spot or realm where 'you' choose to fall asleep?

No, there is no option to choose or not choose to sleep. Sometimes the body forces you to sleep, because it is so tired. Also if you don’t want to sleep you can’t decide against sleeping. Also if you want to sleep, there is no option to choose. I can’t find a point. But there are feelings and senses and thoughts which comment this feelings with “you are tired, it is necessary to sleep”. If you go in the bed then, it is easier to sleep. And then the thoughts can say “you decided to sleep”. But that isn’t the truth. It is only a thought. A part of the self illusion.

3. Can 'you' choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction, etc) of the physical sensation that will arise next?

No, there are only thoughts. The thoughts can say. You “know” last time the feeling was like this. And then expect this feeling. And if it is like this, then the thoughts can say “I knowed it will be like that”. But the truth is you can’t know. You can only experience. Everything except experience is only a construction of thoughts.

4. Can 'you' choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice-point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

No, I can’t choose the emotion. It feels like the emotion is there, before the thoughts about the emotion are there. So there is the experience of the emotion, and then the thoughts come an says something about the emotion. Comment the emotion. Explain the emotion. And can give you the feeling of “control the emotion”. But in my experience the thinking of “controlling” the emotions is not so internalised then other “self illusions”. In my mind, there was all the time the feeling of “you can’t really control the emotions”. The emotions come and roll over “you”. So for “me” it is easy to believe I can’t control them.

5. Do 'you' move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something 'you' control? What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

There are sensations. A lot of, all the time. But often the sensation which changes get the attention. Like “a new sound”, “a feeling”, “a smell”, “a new thought”. And then the focus moves to this “new thing”. Sometimes the focus plugged in this experience and then new thoughts about this experience come. Thoughts which name the experience, tell a story about the experience, evaluate the experience, and so on. So the mind is losed in a lot of thoughts. Often in the illusion and the story about the “self“. Telling “you” something about memories ore future plans. Then “you“ are plugged in the „illusion world“. But then there comes a new sensation or feeling and it gets the focus again. While experience this sensation or this feeling the body is in the „real world“. Sometimes it stay there an one feeling after another comes and the mind “stays” in the experience, in the real world. But also there is no option to stay in “the real world”. Often the thoughts moves „you“ back into your “illusion world of thoughts”.
There can’t be a decision to think or not think, because a decision would need an “I”. But the “body” is able to learn (with or without an self) so in „my“ experience he already learned that it feels good to “stay in the real world” and that’s why the thoughts get less. There are more sensations and more direkt experience. Not I decided this, I’m not able to, but the experience is real. And the real experience leads to other things. This is the flow of life. And so the experiences of the “real world” leads to more experiences of the “real world”. It is not a decision.
First as I start with meditation I thought „I have to „block“ „ the thoughts and I had the experience that this is not possible. No “I“ realised, that it is necessary to „experience“ the „real world“ and experience and see the thought as this what they really are. Thoughts. It is not possible to „block“ or to control them, but it is possible to „see“ their real nature. And so the thoughts lose their power. Lose their right to exist. Lose their destructive power.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

So for “me” it is easy to believe I can’t control them (emotions).

It's easy to SEE or to BELIEVE...?

Emotions are sensations labeled with thoughts. Sometimes a thought causes or intensifies a contraction in the body and one person interpretes it as nerveousness and another person interpretes it as excitement. Other times the sensation just arises and the mind starts labelling it as pleasant or unpleasant and reacts according to that judgment.

But also there is no option to stay in “the real world”. Often the thoughts moves „you“ back into your “illusion world of thoughts”.

"The real world" happens in the NOW, the PRESENT moment. You can only hold the intention to keep your attention in the NOW, but you can't control attention either. Often thoughts deviate your attention into past memories or future expectations which can't be found in direct experience. But as soon as you realize that, your attention returns to the present moment over and over again, until thoughts loose their strength to pull you out of direct experience. That's meditation wether you are sitting or doing your daily tasks.

Now let's explore the body boundaries.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

It's easy to SEE or to BELIEVE...?

I would say both.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Not in the direct experience. You can‘t feel a size. There is no relation and no „beginning“ or „end“ of the body.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

There is a experience of a pressure. A feeling of the wight which pushed the body on the ground. The feeling is only there, where the body has contact to the ground.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

In the direct experience the attention is given only to one experience. An there is no experience of the „whole“ body. There is only the attention to one part of the body.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

Not really, there are a lot of parts where the clothing is „one“ with the body. But there are 2 parts where the clothes are uncomfortable, there it feels like a boundary.

Is there an inside or an outside?

Hard to say. There are feelings which are „part of the body“. Like a hurt and a itch. But of course there are also thoughts which says this. I‘m not sure if this „border“ is real or only made by thoughts. The hurt is a sensation like seeing or smelling. I wouldn‘t say „inside“ or outside“. All sensations are related to the body. In different ways. They give „Informations“ to the body. They are important for the body in different ways. Like hurt is a important information to avoid destroying of the body. Hearing is a important information to communicate, the hear danger … So all sensations have „the same job“ and there is no difference and the thoughts create the border.

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly

I can‘t find a „inside“.

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I can‘t find a „outside“.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

It refers to this, what we and others „create“ as body. As person. As „me“.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

There are the actual sensations. Nothing more.
If thoughts comes they relate the sensations with the „me“. And the last days I thought, no there is no „me“. But then my thoughts said, ok the sensations are not „yours“ they are part of the body. So the body is also another self illusion. There is no difference between the illusion of „me“ and the illusion of „my body“.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

It's easy to SEE or to BELIEVE...?...I would say both.

Be careful not to create new beliefs. Simply the seen is enough.

In the direct experience the attention is given only to one experience. An there is no experience of the „whole“ body. There is only the attention to one part of the body.

Very good insight!

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?


Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

I‘m not sure, if „I“ had done the exercise right. There was the sensation of „this image is not my body“ but there where also thoughts all the time which said so much. „You know it is your body“, „you only wish to see that“, „you don‘t really see that“, „you can‘t be sure“ … and so on. I would say, ok I had seen it. That was the exercise. But what is with this thoughts? Is this normal? It feels like blockages against this.
There was also one moment (as I read the exercise the first time) in witch instantly some thoughts came. They said „ok fuck, you will realise you have no body“, „that’s creepy“, „are you crazy“. And there was a feeling of fear and scary. Chills ran down my spine. I decided then to wait a little bit with the exercise, until I will feel prepared.
But also as I have done the exercise there where a lot of thoughts. It felt like they are fighting against „seeing the true“.

Ok, now to the exercise (Some exercises I have done a lot of times and to different times in a different setting)

1+2 Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No, there is no connection. There are only thoughts, which says. „This is you. You know this. Look, you are doing this, and then the person in the mirror does this too. You have done this experience so much times. This IS you. That are enough proofs.“

3 Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

The connection is also only made by thoughts. It was like in the first exercise. First there was the „feeling“ or „seeing“: No, there is no connection! And then the thoughts get very loud. And „talk“ all the time to me. So much that „I“ get unsure. What is real. What are beliefs. What have I really seen. Have I done the exercise right…

4 Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

This exercise was also a little scary for me. For one little moment there was the feeling of „what is this“, „is this a part of me“, „is this a part of somebody else“ and then also the thoughts came. But this time the „seeing“ seems to be a little bit stronger. The thoughts seems to be desperate with their Explanations. But then there was a feeling of fear and scary again.

5 Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

No, the image itself has no connections to the sensations. There is no suggestion of any person. There is no „me“. It is only a image of something. The only sensations are Color and shape. All the other things are only told by thoughts. The thoughts says „that’s you“. Also if „I“ wouldn‘t „know“ it, I couldn’t tell how my body or another body looks like. Also if I wouldn‘t have a mirror or the possibility to take pictures I couldn’t imagine how my face looks like.

6 Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

No, also only color an shape. The „other parts of the body“ are only a image in the head. Thoughts.

7 Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations. Without a Idea of a “shape” or a “border” of the body.

8 Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Only sensations. No walking. No body. Only thoughts of this. There are a bundle of sensations which the thoughts label with “walking”. The label seems clear if I walk “normal”. I tried to walk in different ways, and one time with eyes closed and ears covered. So the sensations was different. It needs longer until the thoughts labeled it with “walking”. In the actual experiences there is no “walking”. There is only one sensation after another. Only the thoughts bundle this to “one” thing.

9 Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

No, there is no localisation. There are only sensations. The sensations change with walking. Different feeling, different hearing, different seeing. And it changes with the location. Outside the sound is different to inside. Of course also the seeing is changing. The thoughts give this Changes a “label”. Walking “throw the room“.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Sorry for the longer hiatus, I got distracted with other things at hand.

But what is with these thoughts? Is this normal? It feels like blockages against this.

Yes, it seems you noticed how the perception filter of your mind works. Our sense gates send electric signals to our mind and then our perception filter interprets it according to our conditioning (learnt since baby), even filling the gaps of what is missing in direct experience. Look at this video where it becomes obvious how our perception filter creates an image to fit the mind's expectations totally against the law of physics:

https://www.the-sun.com/lifestyle/78196 ... s-science/

It is possible to 'break' the filter of perception by systematic practice of this type of observation. First the mind resists but eventually it will 'dissolve' the conditioned filter. The result is an awakening shift that some teachers call non-dual realization (no separation, no borders, no subject-object).

Do you want to continue with this part of the inquiry or are you ready to answer our final questions in relation to the self-illusion? (in case you have experienced a shift at some point during our dialogue)

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

Thanks for your time 🙏😊

Do you want to continue with this part of the inquiry

Yes! I would like to continue. There are small changes, but I think I should go on with the observations.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Very well, let's continue to inquire the sigth-sensation correlation.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

You can repeat the exercise with all of body parts. For the head you can use a mirror.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight?

They are only linked by the thoughts. For example: I‘m not able to feel the number of my fingers. But I have learned „this is your hand, you can see the fingers and count“. Also I “know” there are 5 fingers. All thoughts. All labelling. But if I look inside the sensations; There is no feeling of 5 fingers. Also „counting“ is only part of the language and part of thinking. In the “world of sensations” there is no counting. It is not necessary.

In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

The “pure” sensation is coming “from nowhere” into the attention and it is going into the “nowhere”. But there are also “informations”. This are only thoughts. First they seemed to be “part of the sensation”. But the pure sensation contents no “information”. There is nothing “to know”. There is only feeling. So this informations must be thoughts. This thoughts comment the sensation. They give background informations like “this is your hand”, “you feel this”, “this is cold”, “this is the thumb” and so on. So first it seems that the feeling is “feeling the hand”, “feeling cold”, feeling the thumb. But in real there is only “feeling”. Only the pure sensations. All the other things are thoughts. Labelling. Talking. Connecting. Creating a story of a self.

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, both of them appear in the “window of attention”. They appear like all sensations appear. “From nowhere to nowhere”. Between them thoughts appear and tell their story. They come and go. Only the thoughts talk “other things” like “they are always there” or “they are both there” or “they are connected”.

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Yes, they appear equally. The sensations are totally different. They are not connected. They are only connected by thoughts. There is the attention to one sensation and then there is the attention to the other one. One after another. In the attention there is always only one sensation. But before, between and after this two sensations there are a lot of “small” thoughts. Hard to identify them. They “talk about” the story of the connection.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

That's very clear, let's continue.

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc.

We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on its own.
Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found? What do you find?

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Warmly,
atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hello Atmajnani,

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No, nothing.

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

There is nobody, who sees the blackness. There is only blackness by itself. Nobody is witnessing blackness.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found? What do you find?

There are only thoughts which says things like “you see” the blackness. But there is only blackness and thoughts. No I, no me. No see-er.

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Nobody is found. There are only thoughts which create a story.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Very good. Now LOOK at whatever is in front of you.

It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?

Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing.
Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?


Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?

It is like a windscreen view. There is only the knowing (thoughts) that a human has two eyes. But there is no perception of this fact.

Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?

There is just what’s seen. The separat “seeing” exist only in the language (thoughts). The most time there is only what’s seen and sometimes the thoughts comment that. While thinking or while talking we start to create this difference in our own concept of the world.

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?

What’s about thoughts? They also get experienced. So every ist just experienced. Hey

Warmly,
Laubfrosch