an occurrence of the hole removed from the donut

[mpaul3]

A few questions:
When you say that the glass could be cleaner, what is it that you're looking for?

Henri, now it seems to be no-self, the open empty space under and inside life, and a lot of chatter around it, thoughts about it, doubts, wanting something more. And, in general, a sense of ease and peace is also here. The habit is to want something else, something more, even though now is, really, quite all right.

What do you expect will happen that hasn't already happened?

Again, not expect, but less doubt chatter as this settles in, maybe.

What is it that you don't have to feel or face any longer when the glass is fully cleaned?

You mentioned how certain processes of house cleaning might follow the certainty of no-self. Obviously, this person/mind-body organism, has a bountiful supply habits and mind patterns. I think the glass cleaning is in that arena. This certainly doesn't change the truth of no-self, just life evolving in relationship to learning there is no Santa Claus.

[Bluejay]

Henri, now it seems to be no-self, the open empty space under and inside life, and a lot of chatter around it, thoughts about it, doubts, wanting something more. And, in general, a sense of ease and peace is also here. The habit is to want something else, something more, even though now is, really, quite all right.

Before the doubt thoughts, what is the primary sensation or feeling?

What is being avoided by going into doubt/thinking?

What does that feeling or energy say about you, or what does it want to communicate?

You mentioned how certain processes of house cleaning might follow the certainty of no-self. Obviously, this person/mind-body organism, has a bountiful supply habits and mind patterns. I think the glass cleaning is in that arena. This certainly doesn't change the truth of no-self, just life evolving in relationship to learning there is no Santa Claus.

Yes, exactly. Remember, this is just the beginning. There are other layers of selfing, and then there's the conditioning of the mind/body organism. People can wake up but not deal with their 'stuff'.

Is the doubt that is arising yours?

What is fascinated by the doubt thought?

Are you responsible for reducing doubts/chatter?

[mpaul3]

Before the doubt thoughts, what is the primary sensation or feeling?

Before the doubt thought is simple peace. I suppose it is something knowable, but not a sensation or feeling in the usual sense of "I feel this or that". It is a presence without an 'I'.

What is being avoided by going into doubt/thinking?
What does that feeling or energy say about you, or what does it want to communicate?

This is interesting. A few days ago you linked doubt and expectation. I didn't get it then. I have a lifetime of expectations built up around 'enlightenment'. These expectations have certainly calmed down over the years and I've become more accustomed to the idea that waking up to no-self is a much simpler occurrence. So, giving up the doubt means accepting this opening to presence, to no-self, is all there is. Meaning, I still have some sense that something else, something bigger and more dramatic is out there. I think this is the heart of the flip-flopping: the taste of presence/no-self is sufficient vs. there has to be something more to this.

Is the doubt that is arising yours?

It is a function of this mind-body organism, not 'mine'.

What is fascinated by the doubt thought?

Mark, the person, has never been quite satisfied, always thought something better was down the line, always a little bit dissatisfied. The doubt/expectation thoughts are about an imagined future.

Are you responsible for reducing doubts/chatter?

Apparently not. And it's becoming clear that this distinction between no-self and thinking is a false dichotomy. The old analogy of the ocean and the waves is for illustration purposes. It's all water. No-self and thinking seem distinct right now, but they're all life.

[Bluejay]

This is interesting. A few days ago you linked doubt and expectation. I didn't get it then. I have a lifetime of expectations built up around 'enlightenment'. These expectations have certainly calmed down over the years and I've become more accustomed to the idea that waking up to no-self is a much simpler occurrence. So, giving up the doubt means accepting this opening to presence, to no-self, is all there is. Meaning, I still have some sense that something else, something bigger and more dramatic is out there. I think this is the heart of the flip-flopping: the taste of presence/no-self is sufficient vs. there has to be something more to this.

It's normal that there's some final holding on to the idea we had about waking up. It seems to often be something about being able to control an internal state like always feeling peace/bliss, never being hurt by others, and so on.

There's a reason many teachers say "This is it!"

A Zen koan comes to mind, maybe you've heard this one?

A monk asked Tozan when he was weighing some flax: "What is Buddha?"

Tozan said: "This flax weighs three pounds."

Apparently not. And it's becoming clear that this distinction between no-self and thinking is a false dichotomy. The old analogy of the ocean and the waves is for illustration purposes. It's all water. No-self and thinking seem distinct right now, but they're all life.

What is it that makes them distinct?

No self is an absence of something that never was. How can that be distinct from thinking?

If you close your eyes and look inside, is the 'internal field' one thing or is it separated into parts and pieces?

Before the doubt thought is simple peace. I suppose it is something knowable, but not a sensation or feeling in the usual sense of "I feel this or that". It is a presence without an 'I'.

If there is peace, what brings up the doubt? Are you missing a subtle discomfort just before the doubting starts?

Here's a video (39min) on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTyUspd7c3c

Feel free to watch this whenever you have time. Can you identify the belief that drives the doubt?

Mark, the person, has never been quite satisfied, always thought something better was down the line, always a little bit dissatisfied. The doubt/expectation thoughts are about an imagined future.

Did you do Part 3 of the unfindable inquiry yet?

Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEXeUb0bh9s

Try this on 'enlightenment' or a word you use to describe it.

[mpaul3]

Hi Henri, thank you for the video links. I enjoyed Pernille and have been working with allowing/accepting/loving difficult feelings for some time. Very good to be reminded by such an articulate teacher. I did redo the 3rd unfindable inquiry. That examination of the 'objects' is a useful exercise.

No self is an absence of something that never was. How can that be distinct from thinking?

This has me stumped. It has seemed that the dissolving of the delusion of self left a space, an openness, emptiness, some freedom from the constriction and separateness of the me-sense. Self was a style of thinking which, as we discovered, has no basis. Is no-self simply the absence of that style of thinking? It seems to have subtle, but broad, ramifications for how life is experienced.

If you close your eyes and look inside, is the 'internal field' one thing or is it separated into parts and pieces?

It seems to be a kind of flow of mind-stuff – thoughts, feelings, sensations. It seems to be a continuum of energy that presents itself in different flavors. Can it be both one thing and many things, or am I just not paying close enough attention?

[Bluejay]

It has seemed that the dissolving of the delusion of self left a space, an openness, emptiness, some freedom from the constriction and separateness of the me-sense.

Yes, this is often what it feels like :)

Self was a style of thinking which, as we discovered, has no basis. Is no-self simply the absence of that style of thinking? It seems to have subtle, but broad, ramifications for how life is experienced.

When you put it like this, I see no problem here.

The self is created in thought and attaches itself to things through thought.

What I was pointing to with my question was that if no-self is thingified, that may be problematic, but it doesn't sound like you're doing that.

It seems to be a kind of flow of mind-stuff – thoughts, feelings, sensations. It seems to be a continuum of energy that presents itself in different flavors. Can it be both one thing and many things, or am I just not paying close enough attention?

Of course it can be both, but what creates separation and the perception of many things?

[Bluejay]

You might enjoy this one:

Nature Exercise

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colors, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and share what was found :)

[mpaul3]

Hi Henri, thank for the responses and exercise. I have a busy day ahead and won't be able to give this its due until tomorrow. But, I want to thank you again for the keen insight and time that you so generously give me. It feels like every day there's a bit more clarity around this matter. Really, much gratitude. Hasta mañana.

[Bluejay]

No hurry!

That's great.

Thank you :)

[mpaul3]

You might enjoy this one:

Very much enjoyed!

Nature Exercise
Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time. Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colors, sensations come and go. Notice that everything is part of one movement. Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

No line. With eyes closed it is clearly an unbroken continuum of experience – sensations, flow of thought, feelings arising. Obviously, sensations were experienced on the body – wind on skin – but not experienced as the defining boundary, just a place where sensation is noticed.

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No, the distinction is semantic, but not in fact real. Thoughts make this distinction, just as they localize experience in the body and create separation. But these are false dichotomies in the context of life happening as one ongoing flow.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

No, the whole is the whole of life, nothing is outside of this.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

This 'witnessing' topic comes up in different ways in different spiritual traditions, and gets confusing. As we've discussed, there is certainly a wide range of thinking/noticing in relationship to life's happening with this mind-body organism. But, this is just thinking, and investigation reveals its rootlessness. The dissolving of the illusion of self has brought presence/being/awareness to the fore as a broader context for the happening of life, maybe as the foundation of life. This is not separate from life, but may be a quality of knowing itself, knowing that life is alive.

Is there anything which is not just happening?

No, everything is happening. In fact, only one thing is happening. There is a myriad of apparent experiences, but only one thing happens.

[Bluejay]

Very much enjoyed!

Glad to hear it :)

This 'witnessing' topic comes up in different ways in different spiritual traditions, and gets confusing. As we've discussed, there is certainly a wide range of thinking/noticing in relationship to life's happening with this mind-body organism. But, this is just thinking, and investigation reveals its rootlessness. The dissolving of the illusion of self has brought presence/being/awareness to the fore as a broader context for the happening of life, maybe as the foundation of life. This is not separate from life, but may be a quality of knowing itself, knowing that life is alive.

Yup, I would have to agree that the witnesser is a thought.

No thoughts really arise here on what to do next. That usually means we're done.

Is there still something you're unclear on when it comes to the self illusion that claims experience, controls, feels, thinks, witnesses, and eats ice cream?

[mpaul3]

Hi Henri, do I/me/mine get a certificate of completion, merit badge, secret decoder ring?

I do very much appreciate the clarity that has come about through this process, and again, thank you for your insight and generosity. I sense there is more deepening and clarity to occur around this matter. I was sort of plugged into the non-duality scene when I spent time with Balsekar 25 years ago. But, it seems to have exploded since then, with many more people gaining clarity/experience of no-self. You mentioned other resources, who/what do you find nourishing?

[Bluejay]

Hi Henri, do I/me/mine get a certificate of completion, merit badge, secret decoder ring?

Your name here in the forum goes from green to blue if you pass the final test! :)

The final 'test' is a set of answers. Would you like to answer them now?

After we wrap up I can share relevant resources.

[Bluejay]

I sense there is more deepening and clarity to occur around this matter.

Forgot this... This is just the beginning. Most likely there will be deepening and further clarity.

[mpaul3]

The final 'test' is a set of answers. Would you like to answer them now?

Yes.