Seeking a guide please

[mark43]

Thanks Phil. I will go back to the hand-flipping activity and watch the video. I’m sorry if I happen to be requiring more of your time and effort than normal.

[mark43]

Hi Phil. After my last comment, I embarked on a 6-hour car trip and was able to make use of the time to ponder things. During the drive, I had an experience of (maybe?) seeing no-self. Not sure if this is it, but here’s the best I can do to describe what I’ve been experiencing:

Things that normally feel like they are happening to and around me, now seem impersonal. Ie - sensations that used to feel like they were happening TO me are now just felt. There’s just an awareness of things happening. Sensations are felt. There’s a display of things being seen but it’s not like I am the one doing the seeing. Thoughts are floating by as they did before.

Where I used to think I was located as an observer, there is now nothing/nobody, but strangely, the observing is still happening - just not by anyone (does that makes any sense?). It’s kind of like there’s a screen on which things appear and disappear. I’m just watching it all, but there’s no me.

Seeing things this way, part of me feels like saying I am just the awareness of all experience, but at the same time, I understand that it could be explained that there is no me aware of anything - there’s just awareness itself. Based on this limited glimpse, I’m not sure what the difference is.

This way of seeing sorta comes and goes. I’ll keep looking. Thanks.

[filtah]

Hi Mark,
This is fantastic.

Where I used to think I was located as an observer, there is now nothing/nobody, but strangely, the observing is still happening - just not by anyone (does that makes any sense?)

Makes perfect sense! Observing doesn’t stop. Can you see how expectations about what should happen could get in the way of noticing this?

I’m just watching it all, but there’s no me

How does it feel to see this?

Based on this limited glimpse, I’m not sure what the difference is.

Both are just stories ‘about’ the experience. It’s your mind trying to put labels on the experience so it can understand.
It's just how it habitually functions from its conditioning, like how it labels everything else.

This way of seeing sorta comes and goes

Yes it will do. Nothing lasts forever, it can come and go, it's normal, it doesn't have to be this way 24/7.


Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate self?

Keep looking unless you can answer 'yes' to this question. The looking IS the freedom, so take as long as you need.


This video from Ilona may help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaLwaQEQZdM

[filtah]

Hi Mark,
Just checking in.

It's important to keep the inquiry going.
If you need to take more time it's no, problem just let me know.

[mark43]

Hi Phil. I seem to have lost what I experienced the other day. I’ve been waiting to see if I can find it again, but it just hasn’t come back to me. I’ve definitely been keeping the inquiry going. It is all I do when I’m not occupied with work or family.

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate self?

It doesn’t feel that way, no.

I have been doing the Richard Lang pointing exercise along with more of the palm flipping exercise.

Thanks.

[filtah]

Hi Mark.

Good to hear that you are continuing with the inquiry.

I seem to have lost what I experienced the other day. I’ve been waiting to see if I can find it again, but it just hasn’t come back to me

Maybe you are looking for something that is already here?
The seeking for it gets in the way of the seeing of it.
Try and notice if what you are actually looking for is a memory of the experience.
Seeking is looking for something that is not here.
Seeing is looking directly at what is here.
If you notice that, see if it's possible to let it go.

These experiences come about when we stop seeking for them, thats the paradoxical thing about them.
One important thing I will point out is what happened was an experience, and like all experiences it must come to an end.
Its very possible it will come back, or deepen in some way, but this experience is not what you are looking for.
We are here to see through the belief of being a separate self. When this is clear, the experience doesn't matter. You can still feel mind-identified, have lots of thoughts, or still be caught in habits and desires. Seeing through the illusion of self is the beginning of a process, not the end.

Did you watch the video I posted from Ilona?

Here are some others which are helpful:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

How are you getting on with the hand flipping pointer?
Do you have any more insights after spending more time with this one?
Would you like to work with a different pointer?

[mark43]

Hi Phil. I don’t know, those videos don’t really speak to me. They seem to be made for someone that has seen the truth and is on the edge of going through the gate she describes. I don’t feel like that’s my situation. I’ve had lots of experiences, and yes you’re right, they are all just experiences. They never last and before long, I’m always back to where I started. I don’t really remember what I saw during this most recent experience. It seems to be gone.

The hand flipping exercise also doesn’t seem to be leading me anywhere. Am I supposed to see that I’m not overtly controlling my hand? I don’t see any decision being made to turn my hand over, but there are thoughts and intentions leading up to the action. There is no decision that determines which hand I’m going to use for the activity. This is frustrating - what am I supposed to see here? It doesn’t make me feel like there is no me. I’m sorry.

I definitely need more pointing activities please.

Also just to let you know, I had this other experience after watching the pointing / no-head video which was pretty interesting. I was suddenly gone and just this vast wide open space of seeing and hearing. It was like I somehow inhabited the seeing rather than the seer. There was no perspective anymore.

What does he mean when to look for what my finger is pointing at? Like what should I be finding? I feel like I’ve been looking in that direction for a long time now and not really coming up with any answers. Am I supposed to find nothing? How would I know what nothing feels like? All I find is what I’ve always assumed to be something.

[filtah]

Ok, no worries about the videos. If they don't resonate, it's ok. In time, they will probably be more relatable. They can be quite powerful, which is why I shared them.

Let's leave the hand flipping. I never had a clear insight with this one either, retrospectively however it seemed important in the process, maybe you will have a similar perspective later on.

It was like I somehow inhabited the seeing rather than the seer

How did it feel to see this?

All I find is what I’ve always assumed to be something.

are you assuming you will find 'nothing' have you made nothing into a thing? You wont find an absence of yourself, thats an idea. What are you pointing at without that assumption? It's not hidden, just look without trying to understand what it is, that will take you away from it, it can't be known by the mind.

I think this pointer could be helpful:

Nature Exercise

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.
Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.
Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?
Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

Also Mark, I am actually going to be busy over the next few days, I'm going on a meditation retreat to I wont be able to respond. I will try and reply to your next message, maybe with an additional pointer. I will be back on Sunday to continue guiding.

In the meantime, it may be a good exercise to read through the entire thread again, and continue working with whichever pointers resonate the most.

I would also recommend joining some of the group Zoom chats. These for me were very helpful during this process, I still visit regularly Vince's Sunday zoom chat, it runs every week now.

You can find the details of how to get on the mailing list here, all free of charge to join:
viewforum.php?f=49

[mark43]

Thanks Phil. I have been going back in this thread and looking at past posts. In reviewing these posts, I see that I’ve now lost touch with seeing that perhaps I exist only in thought. I keep trying to see experience in a new way or find a different perspective by trying to change something. Ie - I imagine I’m not in my body or that I don’t exist or that I’m just awareness itself, etc. I don’t really even know what any of that means. I think I need to just keep it simple and just watch my present experience rather than try to change it. Maybe I just need to see that the self is just a thought?

I will try this new pointing activity. I hope you enjoy the retreat. I will look into this Sunday meeting.

Thank you

[filtah]

Hi Mark

I keep trying to see experience in a new way or find a different perspective by trying to change something

Good that you noticed that. When you see this, you start to break the identification with it.

I imagine I’m not in my body or that I don’t exist or that I’m just awareness itself

I had the feeling this is where you were getting stuck. This is not about finding yourself as a new identity, like awareness.
A lot of teachings say you are awareness, and this can be helpful to some extent, but then you can form a new belief, and a new identity, which is just another concept about what you are. 'Awareness', or 'No Self' even are still just concepts. They are pointers only.

I think I need to just keep it simple and just watch my present experience rather than try to change it.

Yes, this is the way, keep it simple, which is the way it is.
Just notice any attempt to change it if it arises, thats all, just look.

Maybe I just need to see that the self is just a thought?

The self doesn't exist. All there is ,is thinking, it's just believed thoughts point to a real self somewhere. it will eventually dawn that it has always been this way. All thoughts are arising in the same way as clouds in the sky, let them be, just look.


I will give you another pointer, which is great and can be done anywhere, not just in nature.
My guide said this was the only pointer she needed, so it can be potent, spend some time with it, its excellent at bringing you back into your senses, into reality.


ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


Good luck, I'll be back on Sunday evening.

[filtah]

Hi Mark.
How are you?

How did you get on with the pointers?
How were your experiences?
Looking forward to hearing from you.

[mark43]

Hi Phil,

Hope your retreat went well. I don’t really think I’ve made any progress with these pointers.

Buttchair:

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

There is only the sensation. I am not able sense any division.

Nature Exercise

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No there is no line or boundary. No inside or outside of life. This feels pretty understood I think.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Yes. Me. I feel like there is a me watching it all. I just can’t shake this feeling.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Yes, but it doesn’t feel like it’s in the distance. It feels at the centre of it all. Everything happening in life is in relation to the witness.

Is there anything which is not just happening?

I don’t feel like myself or my body is just happening.

[filtah]

Hi Mark, thanks for asking about the retreat.
All went very well, thank you :)

Let's see if we can take this inquiry up a gear, I think it will be helpful if you can.
From now on, please post a response here at least every day, Even if you feel that you have not made progress, or even If I haven't responded yet. just writing something, is a chance to reflect. There is something powerful about writing this out, it requires a certain commitment and focus which I think will help. If you feel like posting more often even, go for it. Use this as a way to focus the inquiry. How does that sound?

Whilst on the retreat, I had the opportunity to reflect on a lot of things, and this included how to look.

It's important that you are not looking from the mind.
By this i mean from an idea, or a preconceived notion.
If you do, then you already have an idea about what you are looking at.
You will be using this idea to compare against what you are looking at, and your acceptance of what is actually seen will be dependant on this idea.

It may not be apparent this is happening, it is subtle.
however, you can look for clues, it will show itself in thoughts about it.
If you notice any subtle expectations, then theres your clue, you are looking for that, and not open to not knowing.

Seeing these expectations, thoughts, is a good thing, but don't go looking for them, they will appear, so just be watchful.
relax, take your time.

So, can you look without expectations? can you look from the space of not knowing, truly, just looking.

Yes. Me. I feel like there is a me watching it all. I just can’t shake this feeling.

If you can feel it, it MUST be a sensation. WHERE is this sensation located? LOOK for this, SEE what this is in direct experience.

Everything happening in life is in relation to the witness.

What is this witness, without any idea about the witness? without a label? Look closely.

[mark43]

Hi Phil. I’m really trying. I try to spend at least 1-2 hours each day on this. I do self-inquiry on the cushion, while driving, and on my daily lunch time walk. I’m trying to understand what you mean by not making what I’m looking for an idea. You mean don’t assume to know what I’m looking for, right? I am trying to approach things with beginner’s mind to the best of my ability. It’s hard to be told there is no self, then try to find this out for myself without knowing what to look for. I will keep watching for this though.

If you can feel it, it MUST be a sensation. WHERE is this sensation located? LOOK for this, SEE what this is in direct experience.

It’s everywhere. It’s a feeling that there is an agent. Everything is happening from the perspective of me. Yes, if I look at this feeling, it doesn’t necessarily hold up in that I can’t say for sure there is a me that’s doing or hearing but there is also nothing yet I’ve seen that proves there isn’t a me. I don’t know what it will take for me to see that there’s nothing here.

What is this witness, without any idea about the witness? without a label? Look closely.

I look at the witness during inquiry all the time. Yes, it’s just an idea, an assumption. I am attaching an agent to all experience because I’ve lived my entire life this way and I guess I don’t really see anything yet that makes me see that this assumption is false.

I 100% see that I’m assuming the rope is a snake. I can’t assume it’s not a snake just because I see that I’m assuming. It doesn’t nullify to possibility of it being a snake.

Phil if there is no me, then who or what is trying to see that there is no me? I know you’ve said that kind of inquiry is too conceptual but that to me seems like something that really keeps coming up again and again. I feel like there has to be a me because of this.

Thanks. Also, I’m definitely on board with taking this up a notch and have no problem commenting at least once a day.

[mark43]

For there to be no me, is it just as simple as taking the “I” out of everything? Like stop viewing life from the perspective of an agent? Ie there are only objects and actions?