I|know|no|thing

[Sabestian]

I would like to continue with you until you get tired ; I have been told before that my intellect gets in the way a lot, sorry. We may be onto something here.

I'm still not sure, but if I had to guess, you have a very good intellectual understanding of there not being a self, but on some level you still seem to believe it.

Yes, it is possible. I may be stuck somewhere in between. I think I will have to investigate more the "self" itself, what do you and I mean by it. Perhaps, deep down I have a wrong understanding of "self". Or I intelectualised this whole paradigm, believed it and live by these beliefs. Perhaps we can uncover bugs in my "understanding".

And when you say a self is aware, I don't find that in 'my' experience. There is what you could call awareness, but a self that is aware I cannot find.

Right here. I am not clear about the difference in wording. I think I have same experience but I could not be so sure and clear-cut about it. Not sure how to put it to avoid misunderstanding... To me self can be aware or I can be aware of the self. It all depends on the meaning we attach to these words :( I think this is why I struggle.

What this comes down to is: Do you act and live life as if there is a self, as if you have control? If yes, then you believe there is a self, no matter what you may say or write.

I don't know. I don't struggle. I don't urge. I don't fight life as it happens. I don't worry. I don't regret. I don't feel guilty. I live in the now, I know and live like there was no past or future.
On the other hand I do choose, at least "I" thinks I do. But I see this process and I can easily see through it. There is no chooser, just the choice. Life happens, but to "me".
I don't know if I act as there was a self.

[Sabestian]

just right now, I wrote that I don't struggle and then I wrote that I do. Two different meanings and levels of meaning.

[Bluejay]

Ok, let's continue then :)

Right here. I am not clear about the difference in wording. I think I have same experience but I could not be so sure and clear-cut about it. Not sure how to put it to avoid misunderstanding... To me self can be aware or I can be aware of the self. It all depends on the meaning we attach to these words :( I think this is why I struggle.

Yes, meaning is in the mind. Confusion comes because the mind says "Well we can see it like this, or like that."

In direct experience there is no confusion, because you look, and you see.

I don't know. I don't struggle. I don't urge. I don't fight life as it happens. I don't worry. I don't regret. I don't feel guilty. I live in the now, I know and live like there was no past or future.
On the other hand I do choose, at least "I" thinks I do. But I see this process and I can easily see through it. There is no chooser, just the choice. Life happens, but to "me".
I don't know if I act as there was a self.

You said you use a technique to remove anxiety. If that's the case, then you struggle, no? You are pushing away experience.

Here you again say that there is no chooser, but then you refer to a self. This to me again points to the fact that you are thinking, because in thought there can be an unlimited amount of perspectives.

So what I want to start doing now is to get you into the body.

You mentioned some struggle with getting stuck in thoughts and anxiety. This may point to a discomfort in being in the body and feeling what is going on.

For next day, focus on the below exercise and direct experience. Instead of interpretations and thinking, just be with this moment.

And we will have to agree that direct experience are the labels used in the below exercise (see, hear, feel, smell, taste). That way I know you are in direct experience and not in thinking :)

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

I'd also like you to be in the 'present moment' during the day as much as possible and feel what is going on in the body. Feel the sensations and feelings in the body.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line. Exactly.

[Sabestian]

I will do this.

just the comment on this:

You said you use a technique to remove anxiety. If that's the case, then you struggle, no? You are pushing away experience.

If there is a struggle I stop and look into it deeply, feel it thoroughly with every sense I've got, immerse in it fully. And stay there. Let it go when it's ready to leave without resistance. No pushing away here :)

[Bluejay]

If there is a struggle I stop and look into it deeply, feel it thoroughly with every sense I've got, immerse in it fully. And stay there. Let it go when it's ready to leave without resistance. No pushing away here :)

Oh okay, that sounds good :)

[Sabestian]

Sorry for the delay, super busy times.
Hope these are good?

Seeing a car = image, color
smelling the car = smell
touching the car = sensation
thinking about the keys = thought

seeing a glass of beer = image
smelling the beer = smell
feeling the cold = sensation
touching the cold glass = sensation
imagining the taste = thought

seeing the water tap = image
smelling the soap = smell
touching the tap = sensation
water hitting the hands = sensation
hearing the water = sound
thinking about persistent limescale = thought

seeing the door = image
touching the cold handle = sensation
hearing the click = sound
feeling of the door opening, the air gush = sensation

looking at my broken leg = image
feeling the pain = sensation
touching the leg = sensation
remembering the accident = thought
feeling resendment = thought

looking at earphones = image, color
touching the box = sensation
opening the box = sensation
hearing the connection prompt = sound
hearing the music = sound
feeling pleasure = sensation

[Bluejay]

Sorry for the delay, super busy times.
Hope these are good?

Yup, perfect :)

Let's try this next then...

Focus on direct experience.

Observing Thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

[Sabestian]

Where are they coming from and going to?

Nowhere. They just appear in consciousness.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Nope.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Nope.

Can you predict the next thought?

Nope.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Nope.

Do you control where attention goes?

I keep trying, it keeps on wondering around.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

This needs a longer answer because yes, I can - in a way. With the techniqe described before. All my life I was in mental pain, had negative and cynical thoughts and was kept up at night by fear. This changed when I started using the technique every time this happened. Stopped running away from thoughts/emotions, istead I kept facing them head on. After a few months of doing this everythig changed and I can say my mind has been 99% pain/negativity/fear free for years now. They can appear still but very rarely. Logic implies then that I had direct influence on the appearing part, this seems to be my direct experience, I cannot deny it.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can choose what to think about (e.g. work) but that's a thought as well.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Well... unfortunately for our process - yes (to the point), as I wrote before. Not at the moment of appearance but with time I can make certain emotions and thoughts to appeare much more rarely. LIke they were just being satisfied with my attention and there is no need for them to keep on coming back. It seems to be a very dependable process that I have been doing succesfully for years.

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

I can see no logic in the appearance of thoughts apart from above.

[Bluejay]

This needs a longer answer because yes, I can - in a way. With the techniqe described before. All my life I was in mental pain, had negative and cynical thoughts and was kept up at night by fear. This changed when I started using the technique every time this happened. Stopped running away from thoughts/emotions, istead I kept facing them head on. After a few months of doing this everythig changed and I can say my mind has been 99% pain/negativity/fear free for years now. They can appear still but very rarely. Logic implies then that I had direct influence on the appearing part, this seems to be my direct experience, I cannot deny it.

Logic doesn't dictate that you had any influence. If you cannot make thoughts appear or predict them, then the technique coming into your life and you using it simply happened. This question isn't about whether a choice or change happened, it's about there being a chooser/controller. I'm sure you already know this, but I'm just repeating it anyway :)

So a few questions:

How do you know that you can stop painful or negative thoughts? (again, not talking about what has happened as that is not proof -- answer from direct experience)

In direct experience, what is the difference between a 'normal' thought just appearing and a thought that sometimes stops/changes something like anxiety?

And where is the controller of this ability to not have painful or negative thoughts?

I can choose what to think about (e.g. work) but that's a thought as well.

Please answer the below questions with simply yes or no.

Can you choose what to think about?

Is someone or something in control of thoughts?

Or does the change in thoughts simply happen based on stimulus (circumstances, mood, weather, genetics, reading this, etc)?

Well... unfortunately for our process - yes (to the point), as I wrote before. Not at the moment of appearance but with time I can make certain emotions and thoughts to appeare much more rarely. LIke they were just being satisfied with my attention and there is no need for them to keep on coming back. It seems to be a very dependable process that I have been doing succesfully for years.

Same thing here, you are describing a process, and then you are concluding that you are doing it.

The weather can change, but to say that there is a God somewhere doing the controlling is to go into thinking and fantasy.

[Sabestian]

Yep, I think this is my turning point. There is such a strong correlation between "my" decision to ease the suffering and following process ending in success that it is very hard not to linger in some kind of residual sensation of "me" existing.
I am playing devil's advocate here, trying to swoop all the dirt from the corners and turn all the stones, so don't worry that you are repeating yourself. If it's needed - do it, please.
I cannot see the "me" anywhere, it's not there.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

How do you know that you can stop painful or negative thoughts? (again, not talking about what has happened as that is not proof -- answer from direct experience)

That's a thought, clearly.

Please answer the below questions with simply yes or no.

Can you choose what to think about?

Yes.

Is someone or something in control of thoughts?

No.

Or does the change in thoughts simply happen based on stimulus (circumstances, mood, weather, genetics, reading this, etc)?

Yes.

[Bluejay]

You say that you cannot pick and choose any kind of thought, and there is no one in control. You also said that changes happen based on stimulus.

But... then you say that you can choose what to think about. Can you explain more here?

If you cannot pick and choose a thought, and if there is no one in control, how is this possible?

If the answer is simply: "It just feels like I can choose" that is fine as well. I just want a bit more detail so we can explore.

[Sabestian]

Let's say "I" choose to think about a pink elephant. And then it appears.
Now, sure, some circumstances led to this choice. We can say that "I" is just a thought that wedged itself there and appropriated the decision. But how to prove this?

[Bluejay]

Let's say "I" choose to think about a pink elephant. And then it appears.
Now, sure, some circumstances led to this choice. We can say that "I" is just a thought that wedged itself there and appropriated the decision. But how to prove this?

You prove it by looking in direct experience at how it happens. Most of what you said here is thinking.

Where did the thought that says that I chose to think about a pink elephant come from?

What is it that tells you that you are controlling this? In direct experience (see, hear, feel), what components tell you that it is true?

[Sabestian]

Where did the thought that says that I chose to think about a pink elephant come from?

It was a consequence of prior thinking.

What is it that tells you that you are controlling this? In direct experience (see, hear, feel), what components tell you that it is true?

Thoughts.

[Bluejay]

It was a consequence of prior thinking.

And where did that prior thinking come from? Keep going until you find a decision point where there is control.

Thoughts.

You need to be more specific. What tells you that you are controlling this?

It is not just thoughts, because if it's a thought without sensation, then there is no feeling of trueness or certainty, it's just a thought floating by, like a thought about a cloud.

You need to really look in direct experience. When there is a belief that "I can choose thoughts," look at all the components. Here is a list:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling