Keeping It Simple

[gbeene]

OK, back and very hydrated after those two cans of fizzy water.

1. Show me step-by-step how the decisions happen. You can also go back to the palm flipping exercise if you don't want to have drinks in front of you all the time.

Flipping hands:
1. I'm staring at my hand, held up in space (visual, sensation)
2. Waiting, anticipating, "It's going to flip" (thoughts)
3. The hand flips (visual, sensation, some thoughts (describing, narrating, watching, analyzing)
4. Thought is retroactively looking for what "did it" and not finding anything. There's just what is happening at this moment.
5. Decision is a thought/concept. in direct experience it's just the sensations/visuals of "flipping" (itself a concept) and thoughts arising.

2. Also, go back in time to find the decision point where 'you' independently chose something without it depending on any circumstance, genetics, preferences, stimulus and so on.

Just because it feels like there is an active decision doesn't make it so. Feelings/sensations don't make decisions.

This would be like... moving sideways through time. It's not possible.

3. When making an active decision, look at all the parts involved. Let's say there's a thought and a feeling.

Is the thought the decision maker?
Is the feeling the decision maker?

It seems like a "decision" can't even exist. There's just what's happening. I just moved my leg because my foot was resting on my computer chair wheel and was getting uncomfortable. "I" "moved" "my" "leg" but I didn't make the discomfort arise. I didn't make the reaction to the discomfort happen. I didn't make attention move onto the discomfort. I didn't choose where or how far or in what manner/attitude to move my leg. Even moreso, typing this out, I didn't look at my foot. Discomfort, foot, motion, floor, chair wheel, just concepts and not known in direct experience.

Careful here. "Maybe it is..." sounds like thinking to avoid looking in direct experience. Is it nothing, or is it something else?

Resistance and fear here can show up in all sorts of ways, such as thoughts that say "Oh, I'm tired," or "It's probably nothing so let's leave it at that," and so on.

Thanks for the reminder. Frustration -> Doubt -> Learned helplessness -> "I can't do it" is the pattern that made me quit my last stint of meditating, and the thing I've got to watch for the most closely, as far as blockers go, I think.

[gbeene]

Did another sit focused on the hand flipping tonight. I tried something else, turning my hand very slowly instead of "one" movement, trying to see where the thing was that claimed ownership of it, and was choosing to keep the hand-flip speed slow. This made it somewhat easier to feel the movement, the feeling of ownership, and watch thoughts in one slower speed.

It's a bit harder to describe than my last post, but it was a lot more like the controller-thought, the background discursiveness, and the field of sensation became seeable as one sort of fabric, for a moment.

[Bluejay]

This would be like... moving sideways through time. It's not possible.

Yes, exactly. Everything is dependent on everything else. One whole moving together. Hence... no separate self.

It seems like a "decision" can't even exist. There's just what's happening. I just moved my leg because my foot was resting on my computer chair wheel and was getting uncomfortable. "I" "moved" "my" "leg" but I didn't make the discomfort arise. I didn't make the reaction to the discomfort happen. I didn't make attention move onto the discomfort. I didn't choose where or how far or in what manner/attitude to move my leg. Even moreso, typing this out, I didn't look at my foot. Discomfort, foot, motion, floor, chair wheel, just concepts and not known in direct experience.

A decision is a thought arbitrarily carving up time to create a decision point, but where does a 'decision' even begin? It could start way back at the supposed big bang, the ultimate 'cause'.

But in reality there is no decision. There is just stuff happening.

Thanks for the reminder. Frustration -> Doubt -> Learned helplessness -> "I can't do it" is the pattern that made me quit my last stint of meditating, and the thing I've got to watch for the most closely, as far as blockers go, I think.

I know this pattern also :)

Try saying: I can do it

Then let whatever images, sounds, feelings come up, and feel them all. Repeat sentence and sit with everything until the charge lessens or disappears (may take a few minutes or up to a few weeks or more).

It's a bit harder to describe than my last post, but it was a lot more like the controller-thought, the background discursiveness, and the field of sensation became seeable as one sort of fabric, for a moment.

So did you find a decision maker, a controller of the movement?

[gbeene]

So did you find a decision maker, a controller of the movement?

No, for there to be a decision maker, one of the thoughts or feelings present while rotating my hand would have to be "it", which is impossible.

[Bluejay]

Roger that!

Next one...

Explore ‘Sense of Self'

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there.

You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this sense of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by feeling it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

[gbeene]

Morning!

Does the sense of self have a location?

Upon initial investigation it usually pops up like it's in my eyeballs or in my head. Upon investigation, those are just sensations, the feeling of pressure/movement in the eyes, or a thought, like "internal space in the head."

Sometimes it feels like when I am investigating those sensations, the self is like a camera flying around, looking at the things or investigating. But that can be seen as just a thought as well.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

In space I would say it feels quite small, when it's coming up in the eyes or in the head. But that doesn't really seem true now that I've written it... it's more like a feeling, a flavor, or a quality on top of a sensation/thought being known. Like a follow-on thought saying "feels like me"

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

Not actively, in the way a thought would. It mostly just seems to communicate a sense of "I am here."

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Honestly it really just seems like a thought is saying "yeah that feels like a sense of self. there's the sense of self." But sequentially this is after the "sense" thought or feeling arises.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

I can't tell, I don't think so, though. As mentioned above it feels like a flavor on top of whatever else is being known. And the flavor is like... "i'm here... i'm here..."

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

I think it's just a thought. It's not really a sensation. While looking for it I had a sense that I was like a dog chasing my own tail, in some ways. Like "Where is the sense of self?" kind of reifies / creates a thought that there is a sense of self. When not actively looking for it, or reacting to something, I feel like I am constantly "forgetting" that the sense of self is there.

[Bluejay]

Howdy,

Now I want you to take your answers and go through them with the inquiry in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwAVOYVMac (about 15 minutes)

First go through the video and follow the instructions there.

Then come back and go through your answers, such as:

Sense of self is:
1. Eyeballs
2. Head
3. Sensations in/around eyes
4. Thought "I'm here"
5. Flavor on top of everything else (in whatever form that is represented: image, sensation?)

And so on. Any questions? Let me know.

Report back what you discover!

[gbeene]

First go through the video and follow the instructions there.

I did this last night during a 30min sit and this morning during a 30min sit. Last night the investigation made a lot of fear and discomfort arise. I looked for the thought "fear" attached to the body sensation of chest tightness, stomach energy, head pressure, felt like blobby kneading going on in my brain. Tried seeing all of that as thought/sensation fusion, but it was hard to not feel like thoughts were co-opting the investigation. I felt a lot of pressure and tension, like I was trying to do something or make something happen.

Sense of self is:
1. Eyeballs
2. Head
3. Sensations in/around eyes
4. Thought "I'm here"
5. Flavor on top of everything else (in whatever form that is represented: image, sensation?)

The sense of self was like a camera flying around and upon investigation, I could see the sensations of all of the above but then it felt like something was looking at them. So then the looker became a sense of self, with related physical sensations. Looking at those new physical sensations revealed them not to be the self, but the looker was there, looking at the new sensations. And so on and so forth. It felt a bit like an ouroboros or running on a treadmill --- conceptually speaking.

Doubt, frustration, sadness arose this morning while doing the exercise but I investigated them as thoughts/words fused to body sensations, tried to let the body sensations relax, and asked "is that it?" but the camera game persisted as noted above.

[Bluejay]

I did this last night during a 30min sit and this morning during a 30min sit. Last night the investigation made a lot of fear and discomfort arise. I looked for the thought "fear" attached to the body sensation of chest tightness, stomach energy, head pressure, felt like blobby kneading going on in my brain. Tried seeing all of that as thought/sensation fusion, but it was hard to not feel like thoughts were co-opting the investigation. I felt a lot of pressure and tension, like I was trying to do something or make something happen.

If it feels like forcing, try the opposite--relax completely, welcome everything. Set the fear free to be in your body. Let it stay as long as it wants, let it expand, and let it be.

If there's resistance to doing this, listen what it wants to say. So if it's something like: "Can't feel this. Not safe" simply repeat "not safe, not safe, not safe" and so on. Acknowledge it. Include everything. Nothing needs to be pushed away.

I remember when I was meeting some dark shadows, thoughts would come that said "We'll be homeless. We'll die. We'll go crazy."

Eventually the response to all this became "So let's die then. I am ready."

I guess that's why they say that you need to be willing to give everything up for this.

The sense of self was like a camera flying around and upon investigation, I could see the sensations of all of the above but then it felt like something was looking at them. So then the looker became a sense of self, with related physical sensations. Looking at those new physical sensations revealed them not to be the self, but the looker was there, looking at the new sensations. And so on and so forth. It felt a bit like an ouroboros or running on a treadmill --- conceptually speaking.

Doubt, frustration, sadness arose this morning while doing the exercise but I investigated them as thoughts/words fused to body sensations, tried to let the body sensations relax, and asked "is that it?" but the camera game persisted as noted above.

You can keep doing the unfindable inquiry on the camera. If it's an image of a camera, is that the I? If it's a thought, is that the I?

Or you can look for the looker. Is the image of a camera the looker? Is the thought? Are the sensations the looker? Is the thought 'it feels like the looker' the looker?

You keep going, and with every objection the mind presents, you keep going, is that the I?

Thoughts will come that feel more and more real, so you keep going no matter what.

And a few questions:

Who controls the camera? Is it yours? Are you looking?

If you say it feels like you, then: Are those sensations the looker?

The camera is a mental image, can an image look? Can a thought look?

What makes the camera feel real? What gives it perceived substance? Another thought? Sensations?

How are those 'supporters' connected to the mental image of the camera?

Where is the border between the looker and the objects? (in direct experience)

[gbeene]

You can keep doing the unfindable inquiry on the camera. If it's an image of a camera, is that the I? If it's a thought, is that the I?

Or you can look for the looker. Is the image of a camera the looker? Is the thought? Are the sensations the looker? Is the thought 'it feels like the looker' the looker?

You keep going, and with every objection the mind presents, you keep going, is that the I?

Thoughts will come that feel more and more real, so you keep going no matter what.

And a few questions:

Who controls the camera? Is it yours? Are you looking?

If you say it feels like you, then: Are those sensations the looker?

The camera is a mental image, can an image look? Can a thought look?

What makes the camera feel real? What gives it perceived substance? Another thought? Sensations?

How are those 'supporters' connected to the mental image of the camera?

Where is the border between the looker and the objects? (in direct experience)

I tried this tonight, got "kicked out" of my place as my partner had people over. Went to my sailboat intending to spend the entire night meditating and figuring this out. Spent most of the time in what felt like impenetrable dullness, though. Felt like I slipped unconscious into hypnagogic thought constantly. Tried looking for the resistance, tried feeling for what it was saying... sadness, disappointment, fear, tried letting it be, all of that was fine but just couldn't stay aware to investigate very much out of the hours I did spend here.

When I did manage to do some brief camera investigation it didn't feel too fruitful. I don't know that I can pin the camera to a sensation or thought. Every time I think I see it it becomes another sensation and then the camera is looking at that sensation. I could t keep my attention stable enough to follow your questions. I'll try again in the morning.

[Bluejay]

Okay, let me know how it goes in the morning.

Tried looking for the resistance, tried feeling for what it was saying... sadness, disappointment, fear, tried letting it be, all of that was fine but just couldn't stay aware to investigate very much out of the hours I did spend here.

If it's still dull, perhaps this is the way--keep feeling into the feelings. If the feelings want to say something, simply repeat it back to them to acknowledge and include.

Here's a meditation on fear/resistance that may also help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX1llYtlKE

[gbeene]

Okay, let me know how it goes in the morning.

Just sat for 30min - was a bit more collected. There was a lot of what felt like...active investigation, trying to find the "camera", trying to relax and let the "camera" present itself, looking at sensations and thoughts as they arose and asking "is this it?. Trying to ask that genuinely...I noticed sometime the question would come up with a presumed answer, like "isthisit-no"

Sometimes it felt like the investigation itself reified the concept of a camera, like the sense of it wasn't there until I "looked' at a sensation. When I noticed myself doing that I'd try to investigate the nature of that looking, like where is the looking coming from? What direction is it? Where is the looker in relation to that sensation?

Experimented with tightening/loosening around the investigation, I keep noticing bodily tensions... my tongue wants to press hard into the roof of my mouth while I'm trying to "loosen." When fear or resistance arose, or I noticed I was singing a song in my head instead of investigating, I'd do what your link share said and thank it for being there.

It seemed like when I asked it what it wanted, the resistance was afraid to try for fear that I couldn't 'do it' which would prove that I'm hopeless. Or it was afraid of change, or the unknown. I'd thank it, tell it "I can do it", let it know it was OK for "us" to keep going.

Felt pretty calm and collected by the end, letting whatever arise arise, asking gently if what arose was "it".

All that said, no clear answers arose (yet) that I feel are "true" worth sharing. But I think the investigation is worth continuing.

[Bluejay]

Sometimes it felt like the investigation itself reified the concept of a camera, like the sense of it wasn't there until I "looked' at a sensation. When I noticed myself doing that I'd try to investigate the nature of that looking, like where is the looking coming from? What direction is it? Where is the looker in relation to that sensation?

Could it be that the knowing of the sensation and the sensation are the same thing?

It seemed like when I asked it what it wanted, the resistance was afraid to try for fear that I couldn't 'do it' which would prove that I'm hopeless. Or it was afraid of change, or the unknown. I'd thank it, tell it "I can do it", let it know it was OK for "us" to keep going.

Something you can add here is to say: I can do it -- then wait for the counter-reaction from the body, like a "no"
Then you can acknowledge it by repeating "I can't do it"
Just keep listening to what the energy wants to say.

Felt pretty calm and collected by the end, letting whatever arise arise, asking gently if what arose was "it".

Do you make sure you separate what comes up?

So if there's an image of a camera with words and sensations, do you go through each of the three separately and ask "is this it"?

[gbeene]

Could it be that the knowing of the sensation and the sensation are the same thing?

I think this is one of those things I've heard enough about that I'm trying not to intellectually say yes and see it for myself... which can be hard. Though I do try to ask this as a enquiry question sometimes. Like, where is the sensation vs the knower

Something you can add here is to say: I can do it -- then wait for the counter-reaction from the body, like a "no"
Then you can acknowledge it by repeating "I can't do it"
Just keep listening to what the energy wants to say.

I did try this a bit. Mostly it felt relieved and not like it wanted to fight back. Or the "I can't do it" became more of a basic fear sensation rather than being "about me".

Do you make sure you separate what comes up?

So if there's an image of a camera with words and sensations, do you go through each of the three separately and ask "is this it"?

Trying to! I guess it goes like this:
A sensation arises and is noticed
I notice I'm noticing a sensation, and look for what's noticing it
"Camera" isn't really words when I do this, but I did try holding up the word "camera" and "looker" and asking "Is that it?" (No)
Sometimes I find the sense of knowing is coming from sensations in my head
I notice those are just sensations, or sensations + visual field, I hold them and ask "is that it?" but then I notice something is noticing those sensations
Repeat

I guess I would say maybe I'm underplaying the thought component of this? I would say the looker doesn't really feel like a thought in the same way a narrative, image, or heard thought would.

[Bluejay]

I think this is one of those things I've heard enough about that I'm trying not to intellectually say yes and see it for myself... which can be hard. Though I do try to ask this as a enquiry question sometimes. Like, where is the sensation vs the knower

That's good.

I tried conjuring up a witness just now and it didn't work. This is difficult to describe but I'll try and maybe it'll help you see from a different angle. It's almost as if the seeing is happening in the sensations. The sensations become everything, instead of a witness looking at something.

Now, there are moments that I can see how someone would describe it as a witness, but I can't experience it like that. It's more like sensations at different places. The sensations are never happening at the same time though.

Also the more I look the more irrelevant this question of a witness even becomes.

I did try this a bit. Mostly it felt relieved and not like it wanted to fight back. Or the "I can't do it" became more of a basic fear sensation rather than being "about me".

Okay, cool. Feel free to play around with it, especially the whole can't do it/helpless pattern. You can bring that up by saying the opposite, which is: I can do it / I'm not helpless. Then you just sit with whatever comes up until the charge is gone (this may take days, weeks, months).

Trying to! I guess it goes like this:
A sensation arises and is noticed
I notice I'm noticing a sensation, and look for what's noticing it
"Camera" isn't really words when I do this, but I did try holding up the word "camera" and "looker" and asking "Is that it?" (No)
Sometimes I find the sense of knowing is coming from sensations in my head
I notice those are just sensations, or sensations + visual field, I hold them and ask "is that it?" but then I notice something is noticing those sensations
Repeat

I guess I would say maybe I'm underplaying the thought component of this? I would say the looker doesn't really feel like a thought in the same way a narrative, image, or heard thought would.

When doing this, are you listening for the answer from your body or from thoughts? You want to ask the question, and then tune into your body and listen.

And during this inquiry and meditation, are you doing any of it? This chasing the looker thing, is there a doer of it? Try 'letting go' during the meditation. Is someone making the meditation happen?

In all of this 'chasing', have you found the self?

When you look and you find nothing, it may be helpful to rest in the not finding or not knowing, then after a while say "There's nothing here," and rest in that 'space'.