Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

How about not fabricating anything for a moment, and simply looking at what’s present  

right now? Do “you” exist at all? LU 

Can not answer.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Govinda,

Can not answer.

Whoa, i didn't ask this question.

Guess none of the fetters I found are broken.

I did ask this one. So, we are working on the first fetter. Tell me what it is in your own words.
Now, give me an example from your own experience that happened within the last hour.

vince

[Govinda]

Guess none of the fetters I found are broken.

I did ask this one. So, we are working on the first fetter. Tell me what it is in your own words.
Now, give me an example from your own experience that happened within the last hour.

vince

Believing that I am a separate self seems to be the first fetter as far as I understand it.

There was the thought that said "I need to make a decision" and the belief that there is a self who can do that.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Govinda,

Believing that I am a separate self seems to be the first fetter as far as I understand it.

Correct, but let's look at this a bit closer.
First there is "believing". Do you actually believe that there is an inherently independent self somewhere inside you that it running the show? ..or are you just behaving AS IF that is the case?
Could it be that the illusion is so persistent because our language supports it? That other so-called 'normal' people seem to believe it. That the logic of thoughts keeps saying that there is?

There was the thought that said "I need to make a decision"

This is a classic example of how language supports it. If I were to say "a decision needs to happen", doesn't that sound a bit strange?
So, an apparent decision occurs and then mind comes along and says "I did that". Does that mean that it actually happened that way or is it just mind saying so?

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Believing that I am a separate self seems to be the first fetter as far as I understand it.

Correct, but let's look at this a bit closer.
First there is "believing". Do you actually believe that there is an inherently independent self somewhere inside you that it running the show? ..or are you just behaving AS IF that is the case?
Could it be that the illusion is so persistent because our language supports it? That other so-called 'normal' people seem to believe it. That the logic of thoughts keeps saying that there is?

Guess there is nobody there to believe the assumption that I am a separate self. There rather seems to happen a behaving "AS IF" according to language and conditioning. Could be as you suggest. In any case there is no one to believe anything.

There was the thought that said "I need to make a decision"

This is a classic example of how language supports it. If I were to say "a decision needs to happen", doesn't that sound a bit strange?
So, an apparent decision occurs and then mind comes along and says "I did that". Does that mean that it actually happened that way or is it just mind saying so?

Yes, sounds strange. Labeling decions with a subject are just thoughts without reality behind it I guess. Subject only exists in thoughts.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Govinda,

Guess there is nobody there to believe the assumption that I am a separate self.

Ok, this is a good example of something (that's a bit hard to put words to)
While it's true, it's also (possibly) "bypassing". That is it a justification for denial.
How can you tell if it is? (rhetorical question) ..because it is a logical conclusion and not a description of experiencing.

In any case there is no one to believe anything.

..same for this.
So, is it possible to see that there is no self, whilst still having a belief that there is one?

Subject only exists in thoughts.

Is this a logical conclusion or have you seen this in experience?
What about objects?
From the perspective of the organism (which is the perspective for ALL our investigation) is an objects existence only in thought?

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Good evening Govinda,

Guess there is nobody there to believe the assumption that I am a separate self.

Ok, this is a good example of something (that's a bit hard to put words to)
While it's true, it's also (possibly) "bypassing". That is it a justification for denial.
How can you tell if it is? (rhetorical question) ..because it is a logical conclusion and not a description of experiencing.

In any case there is no one to believe anything.

..same for this.
So, is it possible to see that there is no self, whilst still having a belief that there is one?

Subject only exists in thoughts.

Is this a logical conclusion or have you seen this in experience?
What about objects?
From the perspective of the organism (which is the perspective for ALL our investigation) is an objects existence only in thought?

with love

vince

Guess you are very right on point with your comments. Thoughts completely blanked out when reading your comments in a way hard to describe.
I thought that clarity of "no self" happened here often times already but this time it was different somehow.
Can't really describe the difference. There was no subtle "observer", "controller" or "commentor" left in the background. "The self" was empty as never before apparently and this seeing was completely beyond control or effort or mind. Whatsoever

Regarding your questions:

Guess there is nobody there to believe the assumption that I am a separate self.

While it's true, it's also (possibly) "bypassing". That is it a justification for denial.
How can you tell if it is? (rhetorical question) ..because it is a logical conclusion and not a description of experiencing.

As mentioned, I thought that "clarity of no self" already happened on a daily basis, but still most of the time "the self" appeared to be real. Maybe the clarity I thought to experience was no real clarity.

So, is it possible to see that there is no self, whilst still having a belief that there is one?

This question still seems to cause confusion.
No, it is not possible. No self can not be clear while believing in a self. With Clarity of no self there can not remain a bielief in self.

Subject only exists in thoughts.

Is this a logical conclusion or have you seen this in experience?

I thought that I had many glimpses where the subject-object division disappeared. But the answer was made on a logical basis.

What about objects?
From the perspective of the organism (which is the perspective for ALL our investigation) is an objects existence only in thought?

For the organism there is only perception or perceiving. Subject and objects only exist in thought.

[blackh]

Sorry to butt in on your conversation - just a little admin issue.

Govinda, your email account isn't working. The error message is "exceeded storage allocation". Maybe you need to delete some old emails before you can get any new ones.

Because this is annoying the admins I've turned off all notifications on your account. To re-enable them, click on "Notifications" next to the bell at the top, and inside there click on "Settings".

[Govinda]

Sorry to butt in on your conversation - just a little admin issue.

Govinda, your email account isn't working. The error message is "exceeded storage allocation". Maybe you need to delete some old emails before you can get any new ones.

Because this is annoying the admins I've turned off all notifications on your account. To re-enable them, click on "Notifications" next to the bell at the top, and inside there click on "Settings".

Ok

[Govinda]

Is this a logical conclusion or have you seen this in experience?

As said glimpses seem to appear on a regular basis. That is the basis of my answer. But "recognition" as Ilona discerns it from glimpses seemed to not have happened yet. Maybe with your last comment but we will see. Regards

[vinceschubert]

Hi Govinda, tell me what needs to happen for you to be awake?

vince

[Govinda]

Hi Govinda, tell me what needs to happen for you to be awake?

vince

"No self" washed over Sebastian quite intensely today bringing relief as well as heaviness to the surface. Apparently clarity of no self seems to be a process here, maybe a kind of deconditioning. I will stick with the questions and investigations and rest in the clarity as it appears until no doubt is left. Your last comment was a huge push for "no self" apparently. You got some more challenging or insightful or whatever questions or comments?

[vinceschubert]

Hey Sebastian,

bringing relief as well as heaviness to the surface.

would you describe both the relief and the heaviness please?

Your last comment was a huge push for "no self" apparently.

Describe your experience of this?

You got some more challenging or insightful or whatever questions or comments?

You tell me what I should say? (seriously)

with love

vince

[Govinda]

bringing relief as well as heaviness to the surface.

would you describe both the relief and the heaviness please?

on the one side there was a feeling of relaxation and lightness, joy and on the other side deep exhaustion and tiredness.

Your last comment was a huge push for "no self" apparently.

Describe your experience of this?

The "center" was absent and the veil of me as a manger of life also. While in previous glimpses a subtle center or observer or owner usually seemingly remained somewhere in the background with this one it was totally beyond thoughts, control, center, or owner.

You got some more challenging or insightful or whatever questions or comments?

You tell me what I should say? (seriously)

to Correct my question: the wish is more for a shattering question. insights run through here like a river with each "glimpse". the desire is for absolute clarity that this "I" is empty.
Guess I can not knock out myself. Any attempt is within the bubble of "me" and affirms it`s apparent existence. What can I tell you to ask me to knock out the belief in me as a separate self? This is like pulling my hair to getting myself out of the mud, isn`t it?
Maybe You could tell me that any attempt to look through the illusion of self is absolutely futile and hopeless. who wants to see through the illusion of self? (default advaita question)

[Govinda]

Enlightenment is sudden and complete, never gradual
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3yaDB_st6A

makes sense to me.