Okay good. It sounds like you used a real apple and not the apple on the screen, is that correct?No. …. It seems that “Apple” is a word/label which refers to a bundle of sensations but not the sensations themselves.
Yes, I am using a real apple.In either case, when you look at an apple, what is seen?
Is red, yellow and brown direct experience?Yes, I am using a real apple.
Red, yellow and brown colors (the apple is on a brown table)
Upon reflection, the colors require reference to memory for labelling ... so direct experience is "seeing".Is red, yellow and brown direct experience?
Yes, like in the labeling exercise, all that is seen is image/colors.Upon reflection, the colors require reference to memory for labelling ... so direct experience is "seeing".
Don't know ... seem to coming from nowhere and disappearing to nowhere ... like water vapor condensing and evaporating ..Where are they coming from and going to?
No. But sometimes it seems like a thought comes due to an earlier decision to focus on some particular task ... i.e. a payment to be made later, and a "reminding" thought appearing sometime later. However, when that thought came, it was not preceded by an intention to remember but came out of nowhere.Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No.Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No.Though sometimes when I'm engaged in a task, it seems like a sequence of thoughts appear to facilitate the completion of the task ... however, I am beginning to see that this sense of continuity may just be another thought coming out of nowhere although this seems rather counter intuitive ..Can you predict the next thought?
No.Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?
As per my observation above, it feels like I can to an extend to complete a task, study a subject etc., but I'm beginning to see that this might just be another new thought ... but the implications are hard to fathom!Do you control where attention goes?
No. Unfortunately...Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No.Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No.Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
I am beginning to see this as a real possibility which obviously would turn everything upside down and be completely contrary to my normal way of experiencing things and my own role .... the possibility is indeed interesting and intriguing, not to say mind blowing!! But more time is needed to observe further and put the pieces together.It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?
No problem. Answer as best as you can and we can explore if something is unclear.I have taken some time to get back to you for two reasons ... I have been on a nine hour road trip (I was driving) and, secondly,I have found the assignment both challenging and interesting and still feel fra from sure about my answers. However...
Ok, good. Whenever something seems to come from something else, you can explore:No. But sometimes it seems like a thought comes due to an earlier decision to focus on some particular task ... i.e. a payment to be made later, and a "reminding" thought appearing sometime later. However, when that thought came, it was not preceded by an intention to remember but came out of nowhere.
Nice exploration here.No.Though sometimes when I'm engaged in a task, it seems like a sequence of thoughts appear to facilitate the completion of the task ... however, I am beginning to see that this sense of continuity may just be another thought coming out of nowhere although this seems rather counter intuitive ..
Yes. We will explore this in the exercise below.As per my observation above, it feels like I can to an extend to complete a task, study a subject etc., but I'm beginning to see that this might just be another new thought ... but the implications are hard to fathom!
Rest with it and watch in direct experience as you go about your day.I am beginning to see this as a real possibility which obviously would turn everything upside down and be completely contrary to my normal way of experiencing things and my own role .... the possibility is indeed interesting and intriguing, not to say mind blowing!! But more time is needed to observe further and put the pieces together.
This seems quite strange and subtle ... I cannot find a directly controlling thought but note thoughts/questions about the phenomenon and how the flipping takes place. But the mystery remains, if I don't do it by thinking then how does it happen? Is there a subconscious level of thinking that I am unaware of? Or is the thinking so swift that it cannot be detected?- How is the movement controlled?
Doesn't seem to ... but then how does it happen?- Does a thought control it?
No ... but since the movement happens due to your suggestion, accepted by me, there would seem to have to be a linking/controlling mechanism. If the suggestion hadn't been made, there wouldn't have been any movement.- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
I cannot find it. Could it be subconscious?- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Don't know ... seemed random.- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
No .. but my common sense tells me there has to be one. Perhaps another explanation could be that the turning movement is performed by an infinitely complex set of factors (my physiology, brain, your suggestion, my breakfast this morning providing adequate energy, the chance happening of my ending up on the LU website etc.....). I had a bit the same experience yesterday when you suggested tracing a seeming train of thoughts back to the "origin" ... upon attempting that it became clear that there was no origin but rather an ungraspably complex set of factors ... sorry if this is becoming too speculative ...- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
Does it matter? Are 'you' in control of it? That is the question :)But the mystery remains, if I don't do it by thinking then how does it happen? Is there a subconscious level of thinking that I am unaware of? Or is the thinking so swift that it cannot be detected?
Instead of going into thinking with this question, which doesn't provide answers (unless you already have them), look in direct experience.Doesn't seem to ... but then how does it happen?
It's speculative, but it's also good that you share what's going on. And if you can notice that this is a lot of thinking, that's even better.No .. but my common sense tells me there has to be one. Perhaps another explanation could be that the turning movement is performed by an infinitely complex set of factors (my physiology, brain, your suggestion, my breakfast this morning providing adequate energy, the chance happening of my ending up on the LU website etc.....). I had a bit the same experience yesterday when you suggested tracing a seeming train of thoughts back to the "origin" ... upon attempting that it became clear that there was no origin but rather an ungraspably complex set of factors ... sorry if this is becoming too speculative ...
You are right ... I have to conclude that I am not in control of the movement, at least not in any way I can identify. I have gone back over our exchange and can see how hard I find it to stay with direct observation only.Does it matter? Are 'you' in control of it?
I am not even aware of an impulse, the movement seems to simply happen ... but it is true that the thought tries to take responsibility, explain etc. It seems though that a thought can arise and stop the movement from happening.Is there an impulse that happens in the body and the body moves, and sometimes a thought tries to claim it did that?
Yes ... when I observe the body and its movements (getting up, scratching an itch, walking etc.) it mostly seems to happen automatically.And does the body seem to move by itself even without thought?
Yes, this does seem like a real possibility. I often feel, when looking back on events in my life, that they simply happened rather than being the results of carefully planned decisions ... the hand turning could indeed be an example of this. Having said this, it is still very puzzling ...Is it possible that 'life' happens by itself?
No, I can now see quite clearly that it is just thinking ... in the same way that understanding light waves, eye lens, retina and brain, does not in any way capture the direct experience of seeing - though these thoughts can be useful to address health problems and issues.So all these factors (physiology, brain, my suggestion, breakfast), what are they in direct experience?
How are they experienced?
Are they anything other than thought doing thought things?
Can you find 'physiology' in direct experience controlling everything?
Are you aware of sensations in the hand before it turns/stops?I am not even aware of an impulse, the movement seems to simply happen ... but it is true that the thought tries to take responsibility, explain etc. It seems though that a thought can arise and stop the movement from happening.
It's quite wonderful :)Having said this, it is still very puzzling ...
Absolutely, thought is useful in everyday life, just not in this inquiry.though these thoughts can be useful to address health problems and issues.
I have repeated the experiment several times and still cannot really identify any sensations prior to the turning, except perhaps for a slight tingling buzz which may be due to the fact that there is attention on the hand. Perhaps I sense a slight "stillness" or "stop" in the mind/hand prior to the turning. I am grasping here.Are you aware of sensations in the hand before it turns/stops?
They seemed to pop up by themselves although some seemed to be sparked by the visual inputs from looking at the drinks i.e. the clarity and purity of the glass of water, as opposed to the muddiness of the coffee.In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
No, no conscious choice was made but the fact of engaging/focusing on the counting made them recede to the background, in fact largely disappear. Attention went elsewhere.In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
No ... but I was aware of a thought wondering what I would chose and wondering if I had already made a decision.Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
Apart from the thinking mentioned above, I was not aware of any deciding entity.In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
The feeling of chasing is there, but I sense that it is more a result of habitual thinking rather than being able to point to anything directly experienced that does the chosing.Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?
Okay, good looking :)I have repeated the experiment several times and still cannot really identify any sensations prior to the turning, except perhaps for a slight tingling buzz which may be due to the fact that there is attention on the hand. Perhaps I sense a slight "stillness" or "stop" in the mind/hand prior to the turning. I am grasping here.
Yes, the feeling of choosing is there, and the thinking assumes a chooser.The feeling of chasing is there, but I sense that it is more a result of habitual thinking rather than being able to point to anything directly experienced that does the chosing.
Even this thought... Did you create this thought, or did it just arise?No ... but I was aware of a thought wondering what I would chose and wondering if I had already made a decision.
No, it just arose on its own. But thinking tells me it arose in the wider context of an experiment to explore choosing ... but I now see more clearly that this is just a thought.Did you create this thought, or did it just arise?
There seems to be a sense of self in the body, particularly the head and chest areas ... but the more I put attention on it, the more it dissipates and disappears and is replaced by an undefined spaciousness. But there is also a sense that the body is "my" body but this is not directly related to the direct experience of self.Does the sense of self have a location? Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
There is a fairly constant stream of opinions, ideas and concepts arising in the form of thoughts. My normal sese is that thoughts are "me" thinking and that this is how the self communicates.Does the sense of self say or communicate anything? If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
No ... as stated above, the more attention is given to it, the more it evaporates into thin air ..Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
It seems increasingly clear that the sense of self is very closely linked to thinking, perhaps even to be thinking, in particular the content or subject of the thought stream which is "my" thoughts, ideas, history, memories, opinions etc.What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
I can't find anything when I look.What is known for sure? Does the thought 'self' contain something real?
Memories, ideas, opinions arising in the form of thought including the idea of my body which only "I" can feel from the inside.What is the sense of self referring to?
OK, excellent.No, it just arose on its own. But thinking tells me it arose in the wider context of an experiment to explore choosing ... but I now see more clearly that this is just a thought.
What is the experience of 'my'?There seems to be a sense of self in the body, particularly the head and chest areas ... but the more I put attention on it, the more it dissipates and disappears and is replaced by an undefined spaciousness. But there is also a sense that the body is "my" body but this is not directly related to the direct experience of self.
You already saw that you don't control thoughts, so who or what is thinking?There is a fairly constant stream of opinions, ideas and concepts arising in the form of thoughts. My normal sese is that thoughts are "me" thinking and that this is how the self communicates.
Does the self exist outside of thinking?It seems increasingly clear that the sense of self is very closely linked to thinking, perhaps even to be thinking, in particular the content or subject of the thought stream which is "my" thoughts, ideas, history, memories, opinions etc.
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