Trying to find that there is no separate "myself"

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
I’m away in the wild and internet is not the best. I also hate replying from my phone. I’m back on Monday so most probably I’ll reply then.
Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for informing.
Have a nice time in the wild.

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
Thank you so much for your patience!

Really awesome observations and looking!
Let’s explore thoughts and thinking a bit deeper just in case.

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your time and exercises. I really appreciate that!

A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

At the beginning I thought that it is me who recognizes the thought, because somehow it is known that there is a thought.
After deeper looking I realized that there cannot be anyone because in DE there are only sensations and thoughts. Even in the sentence "At the beginning I thought that it is me who recognizes the thought" I wrote "I thought" :) It is only a thought that there is someone aware of thoughts. But in reality there is no one. Only thought recognition or just an awareness.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No, there is nobody that does the thinking. Thinking just happens. Thoughts just come and go.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I am not able to influence a thought stream, even if sometimes it appears like that. It is not possible to make a different thought appear.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

There isn't anything responsible for the thoughts. Thoughts just appear and disappear. It is not possible to change a flow of thoughts.

Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Thought appear totally in a random way from nowhere and disappear to nowhere. I was not able to spot the exact location, so there is no location at all.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?

No, I could not predict the order of appearance.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, thought just appear when they want to.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last?

This one was interesting to explore. Actually it is possible to stop thinking a thought in the middle if something happens during that thinking, for example a sudden distraction like loud music, someone shouting or so. But all this is not my intention to stop thinking, it just stopped because of distraction. Or maybe it stops because it is just an awareness shift to other things like listening.

Are thoughts 100% true?

Thoughts are always about something: the past or the future. The past is already gone and the future is still not here so all this thinking is not true at all. That is how I see this.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

If I don't think about myself, there is no me at all. Everything that is - just pure sensations. So it means that "I" can only be found in the thought. Wow... And thoughts are random and nobody controls them... Another wow...

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas

Thank you for your time and exercises. I really appreciate that!

It’s my pleasure talking to you!

It is only a thought that there is someone aware of thoughts. But in reality there is no one. Only thought recognition or just an awareness.

Or maybe it stops because it is just an awareness shift to other things like listening.

When you say “awareness”, how is this experienced in DE? What is awareness? Is it a container for experiences?
Some kind of lone witness?
Or is witnessing too just happening, done by no one? Is awareness a container in which all arises?
Keep digging.
Does it have any observable characteristics? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Is there awareness (noun/entity) or “aware-ing” / knowing / being – more like a feature of experience?

Now let’s LOOK even deeper… where does awareness stop and the thoughts start, is there a visible border? Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are the awareness and thought separate, or is there only “aware” thinking? Can there be thoughts without awareness? Can there be awareness without objects (thoughts)? Would awareness of the thoughts exist without the thoughts? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience/teachings!

You might this video helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... ex=17&t=8s

If I don't think about myself, there is no me at all. Everything that is - just pure sensations. So it means that "I" can only be found in the thought. Wow... And thoughts are random and nobody controls them... Another wow...

How does that make you feel?

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

When you say “awareness”, how is this experienced in DE? What is awareness? Is it a container for experiences?
Some kind of lone witness?
Or is witnessing too just happening, done by no one? Is awareness a container in which all arises?
Keep digging.
Does it have any observable characteristics? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Is there awareness (noun/entity) or “aware-ing” / knowing / being – more like a feature of experience?

I had to dig it deeper. When I tried to find awareness in DE, there was none. Just thoughts arising, hearing of sounds, seeing. When I wrote "awareness", it was from my past teachings, but now I see that in DE everything just happens and is done by no one. No awareness is needed for that, or there is no awareness. It is not possible to describe it using five senses. I could better call awareness more like “aware-ing” / knowing / being / living.

Now let’s LOOK even deeper… where does awareness stop and the thoughts start, is there a visible border?

Could not find any border, just thought arising.

Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are the awareness and thought separate, or is there only “aware” thinking? Can there be thoughts without awareness? Can there be awareness without objects (thoughts)? Would awareness of the thoughts exist without the thoughts?

Looking deeper I could see that there is no separation between thought and awareness of that thought, so it is just "aware" thinking. There would be no awareness of the thoughts without the thought. So, "awareness" is just a label for thoughts arising, hearing, seeing, sensing, smelling?

Love,
Vitas

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

You might this video helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... ex=17&t=8s

Thank you for that video. It was really helpful.

If I don't think about myself, there is no me at all. Everything that is - just pure sensations. So it means that "I" can only be found in the thought. Wow... And thoughts are random and nobody controls them... Another wow...
How does that make you feel?

Just some small shift in seeing everything, but "me" is still here. Digging deeper :).

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) You are doing great!

Just some small shift in seeing everything, but "me" is still here. Digging deeper :).

No worries! We’ll look in all the “hiding places” :)
When you say that “"me" is still here” where did you look? Is it because thoughts says so or you actually looked and saw? Where exactly does it “shine” the brightest?

Remember the analogy with looking for your keys? This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
What is found?
We'll explore choice and decision making next...
Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

When you say that “"me" is still here” where did you look? Is it because thoughts says so or you actually looked and saw? Where exactly does it “shine” the brightest?

When I look I actually do not find “me”, but my thoughts, emotions and body sensations (tension, pain) indicate that “me” is here. Or maybe once again the thought says so: that these emotions and pain are mine. I feel it especially when somebody says something about my past (for example “you did in not right and because of that this bad thing happened… so you are responsible for this”), or about what should I do. Even my mind can get me crazy when trying to make a decision on something important for “me” and “my family” future. I know that there is no decision maker, there is no witness, everything just happens and decisions are just made somehow, but thoughts arise, intense emotions and body sensations also (heart starts beating quicker, breathing becomes more intense and it seems that I need more air, tension in the chest area). I understand that all this is just “what is” and is not controlled by me, especially when I see that these thoughts, emotions and sensations just arise from nowhere and at any time. Still most of the time I see it like all this happens to me and should be controlled by me.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?

When I try to feel anything and inquire there is a feeling in the chest/heart are. At least there my focus of attention goes.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No, I could not determine any shape or size.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

I do not find any communication, just some kind of tension in the chest area rising and fading like waves.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
What is found?

No sounds, no images, no taste or smell. But a lot of thoughts and sensations. Thoughts about who I am with all my past (what I did wrong and right), my family - that I have to take care of, my friends, my business, money problems and so on.

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas

When I look I actually do not find “me”, but my thoughts, emotions and body sensations (tension, pain) indicate that “me” is here.

First, let’s make it clear:
Emotion = sensation + thought

Thoughts obviously say funny stuff all the time that we’ve seen already is not true. Thoughts overlay the raw experience with labels, concepts, and stories. A thought is never the actual experience - eating chocolate vs remembering eating chocolate. if they were then you would be able to taste the word 'sweet', hear the word ‘buzzing’ and get wet with the thought 'water'. Some thoughts point to the actual experience (what is actually happening – seeing, …), and some point to other thoughts, but the content of every single thought is just fiction, which can't be found in actual experience.

So let’s leave thoughts aside for a second. Stay with the raw sensations (“tension”, “chest”). Is there anything in these raw sensations that suggests a “me”? There is aliveness there – “heartbeat”, “breathing” (sensations), but is that aliveness personal? Focus on that feeling - am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?

Spend as much time with this as needed, answer and then move on to the next exercise…

Even my mind can get me crazy when trying to make a decision on something important for “me” and “my family” future.

Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for being with me.
I had to take more time to look to all of your exercises and I see that every time it destroys more and more of this illusion of "self".

So let’s leave thoughts aside for a second. Stay with the raw sensations (“tension”, “chest”). Is there anything in these raw sensations that suggests a “me”? There is aliveness there – “heartbeat”, “breathing” (sensations), but is that aliveness personal? Focus on that feeling - am-ness/being, aliveness.

No, there is nothing in raw sensations that suggests „me“ and aliveness is not personal.

Can you tell if there is a being or just being?

Just being.

Is life happening to a being or as being?

Life is happening as being.

Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?

No, it is not an object or subject, nor a human.

Is it what you've taken as "you"?

Earlier I have taken it as „me“, but now I see that this is just „aliveness“ and is just happening.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
How is the movement controlled?

I did not manage to discover how it is controlled. No control found.

Does a thought control it?

No. A thought is just a thought, and it can’t control anything.

Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?

No

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I could not discover any real decision maker or any decision point as sometimes a thought appears and hand turns, but other times the hand just turns without any thought or thought appears after hand turn to just label that movement.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

No, I was not choosing any qualities, they just appear. I also did not choose any preferences. They just pop up by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

No choosing entity and I did not choose the sequence of event. It just happened.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

No, nothing arose that announced - ‘I am the chooser’. Choice just happened.

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

It was not like a ‘biggish’ decision, but just one of recent decisions. I was driving a car and a thought came up to go to the shop and buy a doorway carpet that I forgot to buy some days ago. I had to turn from the way that I was driving to reach that shop so throughs started to appear that said: ‘Is it worth to turn from my way now’, ‘Maybe there will be a traffic’, ‘Maybe next time’, ‘But why not today, I have time’ and so on. At the same time, I was looking around to evaluate the traffic, looking to the clock to see what time it was. Thoughts were just appearing till I reached the point of the road where I had to turn to the shop or just go straight where I was going. And… I just turned and went to the shop. I have no idea why and who made this decision. It just happened spontaneously. I have no idea if the outcome could have been the same or different if any of those conditions were different as I cannot find who and how decided to turn this time. According to thought everything was under its control, but I see that nothing was under anyone’s control.

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas

Thank you for being with me.

It’s really my pleasure! Thank you for your diligence and perseverance!

Earlier I have taken it as „me“, but now I see that this is just „aliveness“ and is just happening.

How does that make you feel?

I could not discover any real decision maker or any decision point as sometimes a thought appears and hand turns, but other times the hand just turns without any thought or thought appears after hand turn to just label that movement.

Yes!! Thought comes with the action announcing how there is an “I” that did it. You’ll find this video interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

It was not like a ‘biggish’ decision, but just one of recent decisions. I was driving a car and a thought came up to go to the shop and buy a doorway carpet that I forgot to buy some days ago. I had to turn from the way that I was driving to reach that shop so throughs started to appear that said: ‘Is it worth to turn from my way now’, ‘Maybe there will be a traffic’, ‘Maybe next time’, ‘But why not today, I have time’ and so on. At the same time, I was looking around to evaluate the traffic, looking to the clock to see what time it was. Thoughts were just appearing till I reached the point of the road where I had to turn to the shop or just go straight where I was going. And… I just turned and went to the shop. I have no idea why and who made this decision. It just happened spontaneously. I have no idea if the outcome could have been the same or different if any of those conditions were different as I cannot find who and how decided to turn this time. According to thought everything was under its control, but I see that nothing was under anyone’s control.

Did the thought make this happen or it happened and thought came along trying to "make sense" of whatever was happening?
You didn’t choose your upbringing, the need for a door mat, the forgetting to buy it before, the actual level of traffic. Your inclinations, conditioning, etc. all come to play a role in “decision making”, and those are built on top of other things. So, there is no “decision” at all, but it’s plain cause and effect playing out and thought announcing and claiming the “decision”, right? Or to word it differently, thoughts self-organise around experience based on previous conditioning (old thought content). Can you see it?

But!! Do cause and effect exist without thought? How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly? When could possibly cause and effect take place when there is only NOW/ what is happening? What is time without memory (thought content)? Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’? Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

How does that make you feel?

The best way to describe it would be – „Less ups and downs, or more calmness “. If everything is just happening so, why worry too much or at all, or why to be too happy or too much excited. I feel like everything is slowing down.

Yes!! Thought comes with the action announcing how there is an “I” that did it. You’ll find this video interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

Thank you for this video. It was very interesting.

Did the thought make this happen or it happened and thought came along trying to "make sense" of whatever was happening?

It just happened and thought came afterwards to “label” or “make sense” of it.

So, there is no “decision” at all, but it’s plain cause and effect playing out and thought announcing and claiming the “decision”, right?

Yes, that is right.

Or to word it differently, thoughts self-organise around experience based on previous conditioning (old thought content). Can you see it?

Yes, I see that!

But!! Do cause and effect exist without thought? How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly?

Without thought cause and effect are not possible, because these are thought content and cannot be experienced directly.

When could possibly cause and effect take place when there is only NOW/ what is happening? What is time without memory (thought content)? Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’? Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?

It is not possible to directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’, ‘1 min ago’ or even ‘1s ago’. Direct experience is only what is happening now. So, cause and effect cannot take place as they can’t both be now.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

‘Now’ is just ‘what is’ or Reality, or ‘Life’, or ‘Aliveness’. I can give it whatever label, but it does not change the essence. There is no experience of ‘now’ moving along the timeline. The line of time appears only with a thought. I was not able to find time in direct experience. So no ‘past’, no ‘future’, no movement, no start and the end, no sequence in time. It is not so easy to digest, but it is true and it changes everything…

Love,
Vitas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vitas
Thank you for the wonderful looking!

The best way to describe it would be – „Less ups and downs, or more calmness “. If everything is just happening so, why worry too much or at all, or why to be too happy or too much excited. I feel like everything is slowing down.

Good! :)

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”? Is there ‘here’ or ‘there’? Is there space?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others? How are “others” experienced?
Is there a “you”?

Love
Rali

[Nobody8]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for my late reply, but I had to spend more time with your last exercise to not answer it from the thought perspective.

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No, there is not.

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

It is just a thought. There is no way to directly experience this division.

Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”? Is there ‘here’ or ‘there’?

That movement is not outside of me nor inside of me, as there is no "inside" and "outside". There is no 'here' or 'there' too.

Is there space?

There is no space. There cannot be space because if there is a space there should be something separate in that space. Also space can not be located or found in DE. Everything: space, me, others, trees, birds and so on are the same interdependent movement as a whole that is just happening every moment.

Is there an owner of being?

No.

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others? How are “others” experienced?

No, there are no others and there is no an 'I' in others. Others can only be experienced as the same interdependent movement or 'aliveness' happening as 'others'.

Is there a “you”?

No, there is no 'me', just aliveness happening as me.

When I do this observation 'I' can see how life is happening as a whole and that there are no separate things anywhere. After some time or if something ordinary happens (phone rings, somebody calls) thoughts bring 'me' to separate state. It takes some time to once again realize that there is no separate 'me' and separate caller. This jumping is happening all the time. At least now I can see that this jumping is just happening and is also a part of the same interdependent movement. Who should decide that there should be no 'jumping back to separate self and once again to no separate self' if there is no decision maker. So it is just 'jumping' :)

Love,
Vitas