Seeking a guide please

[mark43]

Oh I think I understand now. Please disregard my previous answers.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The former.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The latter.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No not at all

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

No effect

Sorry, I’m not colour-blind. I just didn’t understand what was meant here for some reason.

[mark43]

Good catch. Does this vantage point have a physical location in the body someplace? what does it feel like?

It for sure feels like the vantage point is coming from the body.

[filtah]

It for sure feels like the vantage point is coming from the body.

OK. Can you locate it? The chest or gut for example?
How does it feel? like a contraction?

Here’s another pointer to explore:


Friend/Stranger

Bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

Then bring up a thought about a character labeled "stranger."

Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me.”

Is there a difference?

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"

Let me know what is found.

[mark43]

OK. Can you locate it? The chest or gut for example?
How does it feel? like a contraction?

It doesn’t have a specific origin. It just feels like it’s coming from my whole body. It doesn’t have a feeling.

[mark43]

Is there a difference in these thoughts?

There is no difference other than the label.

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

No the only difference is the label.

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me.”

Is there a difference?

Yes it feels different.

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"

The thoughts about “friend” and “stranger” point to things farther away whereas the thoughts about the “me character” do not. I seem to try to visualize the person or the words friend or stranger, but this does not happen with me. Instead, the content of the me thought seems to point to the experience or vantage point I feel reside from.

[filtah]

Hi Mark.

the content of the me thought seems to point to the experience or vantage point I feel reside from.

OK, let's look at that closer.
If this ‘me-character’ is really here then we should be able to find it no?
Can you feel this vantage point in your direct experience?
You said its coming from your whole body.
Lets explore that feeling with this exercise:

Explore ‘Sense of Self'

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

[mark43]

Hi Phil.

Does the sense of self have a location?

Sometimes it feels like it’s behind my eyes. Other times it feels like it’s behind my body.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No it doesn’t.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No it doesn’t.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

No it doesn’t.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Usually its just a feeling of this is where I am. This is the perspective from which all objects are perceived.

What is found?

Nothing is found ever. But what would I be able to find if I did exist?

[mark43]

The sense of self feels like to it’s in my head. When I close my eyes, I feel sensations in my face in front of where this sense originates from. I feel my torso below my head, and my legs below it.

This sense doesn’t really have any particular characteristics. It just feels like this is where my point of being originates. I realize this is just a thought, but the awareness of this doesn’t seem to matter.

When people say tell me to look for the self, I can’t find anything really, but what should I expect to find other than this feeling of me?

[filtah]

Hi Mark.

Usually its just a feeling of this is where I am. This is the perspective from which all objects are perceived.

If its a feeling, something you can actually sense in your experience, then it would be made of sensation right?
Can you find any 'self' in this sensation? or is it simply sensation?
Is this ‘self’, just a label added on top, just a thought?

This sense doesn’t really have any particular characteristics. It just feels like this is where my point of being originates. I realize this is just a thought, but the awareness of this doesn’t seem to matter.

When people say tell me to look for the self, I can’t find anything really, but what should I expect to find other than this feeling of me?

Can you see clearly that it is just a thought? Usually it gets mixed up with sensation, the point of this exercise is to see the difference.
What is this 'feeling of me’? is it actually here in your direct sensory experience? if it’s not, then what else could it be but a thought, a belief?

Here is another pointer:

Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

[mark43]

Can you find any 'self' in this sensation? or is it simply sensation?
Is this ‘self’, just a label added on top, just a thought?

No, I can’t find a self there, and yes, it’s just a label.

What is this 'feeling of me’? is it actually here in your direct sensory experience? if it’s not, then what else could it be but a thought, a belief?

Yes, I see that it’s all just a belief. I guess I’m starting to understand or see what you’re pointing towards a bit. Ie - there is nobody here controlling this all. The me that I think everything is happening TO only exists in thought, and that when I let go of that, life just happens as if on a kind of cruise control.

Is that it?

Thanks

[filtah]

Yes, I see that it’s all just a belief. I guess I’m starting to understand or see what you’re pointing towards a bit. Ie - there is nobody here controlling this all. The me that I think everything is happening TO only exists in thought, and that when I let go of that, life just happens as if on a kind of cruise control.

Yes! Life is already just happening. There is nobody here that can 'do’ the letting go. The letting go is already the case, it just needs to be seen.
The freedom is in the looking.

How did you get on with the Introductory Body Exercise pointer? Please post your answers.

[mark43]

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

I don’t believe any of these questions can be answered in the affirmative when looking at direct experience.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No boundaries are felt.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

No, the concept of inside/outside is also rooted in thought. This doesn’t exist in direct experience.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Well, the body is the object in which sensations are felt. This can be confirmed simply by causing the sensations by touch. This is the only thing whose sensations can be felt by awareness.

[filtah]

Hi Mark,

Well, the body is the object in which sensations are felt. This can be confirmed simply by causing the sensations by touch. This is the only thing whose sensations can be felt by awareness.

Im not totally clear on your answer, but I will say this.
Without thinking about it, how do you know the body is an object?
Don’t objects, by definition have shapes, sizes and boundaries?

Lets see if this makes it clearer:


Deeper Body Investigation

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

[mark43]

Hi Phil. I’ve been doing this a bit the last two days. I don’t feel ready to report back my observations yet. Thanks.

[filtah]

Thanks Mark.
Was going to ask how you were getting on, thanks for the update. Just let me know each day if you need more time, it's never a problem.