Stepping in

[Birdie]

On second thought to reaction: When I opened the page and saw all caps on the page: alarm. Mind stepped in and said, don't look at this, read it in order (for context). The reaction upon reading it was laughter, big smile, warmth. So the laughter was probably a response to the initial alarm.
Oh, well...

[vinceschubert]

Hi Leela,

There has not been anything I can call a shift.

Oh, there has been. But in your case (as happens to many) it has been incremental. It crept up slowly and wasn't noticed. When you came to me almost 2 years ago, you had already been actively working on this stuff for quite some time.
Most people define a shift as an epiphany episode, whereas a shift as the difference between what was before compared to what is now. So, compare what is now to how it was before you contacted anyone to actually work on this stuff.
Have you shifted?
hmm, even that isn't a good indicator as you may have worked stuff out by yourself before seeking help.
Anyway, shift or not is actually irrelevant. It's where you are now that is.
What actually happens with recognizing that a self is just a bunch of stories is a dropping of identification (with the self)
That test I gave you shows that there isn't any fundamental identification there, although there is almost certainly remnants lurking. There is still some here that reveal themselves from time to time.

Some teachers say there must be a shift with a definite before and after.

It's a good thing that I'm not a teacher then, isn't it? (i define a teacher as someone who imparts information)

Based on that, I'm not ready. And, I don't know what to do.

If you can answer this question (to yourself) with a feeling of certainty, then you have broken the first fetter and seen through the delusion of self, recognizing it as an illusion.
"Is there an inherently separate self somewhere in you running the show?"
If you thought "no" but not with certainty, then you have probably broken the first fetter but are struggling with the second one (doubt)
If doubt is the issue then we will work on that for a bit before answering those questions.

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince.

"Is there an inherently separate self somewhere in you running the show?"

It seems like a ridiculous question, there is no mini-me calling the shots, but there is a devil who likes to stir things up sometimes. Then there is emotional energy to do my best to experience without the unhelpful mental commentary.
For the past year, I've been participating in group awareness exercises: taking turns in a group reporting from direct experience. Sometimes it feels more spacious and expansive, other times more heartful. Nowhere in these exercises can a separate self be found. Quite the opposite.
I have also been doing a lot of Angelo Dilullo guided inquiry into sense fields. No separate self found there.

I must be over-thinking this.
Tonight I taught an old routine that I love and have done since 2002. I know if frontwards and backwards. However, I forgot where I was in two songs. It was like I had never heard them before. Sunday, I forgot how zoom worked. I also temporarily forgot how to work the time sheet program on the computer at work. I think this 'devil' is connected to these lapses and the occasional incorrect assumption based on lapse. It would certainly be convenient to not have a self to hang these lapses on. (There must be someone to blame!!!;)) Is there? I don't think so.

Right now, there is the usual sense of stillness I feel after class. The loud sound heard in silence.

Love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Hi Leela,

It seems like a ridiculous question, there is no mini-me calling the shots,

So, that's a no.

but there is a devil who likes to stir things up sometimes.

Say more about this.

Then there is emotional energy to do my best to experience without the unhelpful mental commentary.

How does this happen without a "mini me"?

I think this 'devil' is connected to these lapses and the occasional incorrect assumption based on lapse.

What is your response when this happens?

with love

vince

[Birdie]

It's a beautiful morning here, Vince. You are probably enjoying the beauty in your garden, too.
This is real: the way the sun reflects off the surface of some leaves, shine through and illuminates others, and the play of shadows and light. The stillness seems real. The churly devil who has to say something, against better judgement, which recedes into the back ground when the devil is at play: is not real. (Just noticed a prismatic effect of sunlight on my keyboard. Tiny little points of colors. Never saw this before.)
The stillness is still here, and thoughts. So the devil will say something, people will react, then I will have a lot of feelings: shame, anger, defensiveness. I'm doing my best to feel them. And question: what really needs to be defended? Nothing. There is the thought that I should never say anything again. And the thought that growth comes by doing the thing and being with the consequences. Here is cause and effect. Leela said something, somebody reacted. And they are always reacting to their own stuff, anyway.

How does this happen without a "mini me"?

There is the thought/belief/teaching that feelings need to be fully felt, in order to stop going crazy and suppressing them. Who decides to follow that? Who could decide not to and veg out, instead? And forget about this whole stupid project? (which makes me tear up) The project seems to have will of its own. Not possible to back out, even though it is so painful to be unable to push through.

What is your response when this happens?

Right now, identify the feelings (inadequacy, not enough, shame) and see if they can just be experienced. Or the energetics can be felt.
Thank you.
Love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Hi Leela, i'll (probably) get to this tomorrow night. I'm travelling at the moment.

love

vince

[vinceschubert]

'morning Leela,

This is real: the way the sun reflects off the surface of some leaves, shine through and illuminates others, and the play of shadows and light

No it's not. It's a total construction by your thoughts. You do project what is real (actual) though, with your tone. What is actual is your response to it (your projection). Your experience (now a memory) was all that was actual.
Think about it. Somebody standing next to you who is a glass-half-empty person seeing and responding to something entirely different.
Having said that, the fact that you experience this perception is significant. i think that we just have to 'clean up' a few loose ends. (before we get to those questions)

then I will have a lot of feelings: shame, anger, defensiveness. I'm doing my best to feel them.

What jumps out for me here, is the illusion of DOing. Don't "do your best" to anything. What we resist we make stronger.
Yes, I get that you think that feeling them is a good way to do something about them.
Really, they aren't the problem. They are the organism's solution to something.
Sure, there is an underlying intention to not have them at some point, but they are an offering. They indicate some buried belief that is the real issue.
Now it's valuable to understand that we don't need to find any original trauma to eliminate them. The belief that stimulates them is current. Finding that is all that is required to move on. (to the next maladaptive belief)
Shame, anger, defensiveness are some of what can arise when the armour of Self is impacted. In this case by a devil saying something. It's interesting that my capitalized abuse didn't provoke these reactions but your thoughts can..
If these words haven't invited some insight about that hidden belief, then sit and search for a thought statement, a sentence that has some juice in this area. For example, imagine your mother berating you for something. Does that get a tingle of shame or defensiveness?

And question: what really needs to be defended? Nothing.

This is accurate but it is bypassing. The intention is not to eliminate the response, but to recognize that the cause of it is maladaptive.

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince.

Your experience (now a memory) was all that was actual

Ok, this is understood. So what is received through the senses is not necessarily real. The senses seem to be the place to go to get out of the head.

There is the illusion of Doing this, writing this. It sure seems real.

Beliefs:
*I'm not good enough, intelligent enough, diligent enough, don't work hard enough, don't surrender enough--I'm just not enough to do this work.
*There must be something missing in me that makes breaking this illusion not possible. (Just like 'fitting in' is impossible.)
** I'm not loveable.
As a child messages heard were:
"Act your age!" (meaning be a grown-up already, I have other kids to deal with). I was always more naive, less mature than other kids my age.
*"You never finish anything!" (too easily distracted by lots of things.)

**Memory of crying and begging to be held as a child and not getting it (enough, anyway). Only babies got held, and I was the oldest, I was not supposed to need to be held. I was supposed to get over it. It seems that would translate into not being loveable. (Which leads to people-pleasing, but for some reason, I burn out on people-pleasing quickly and prefer to be alone.)

I can work on clearing these beliefs. And that is still doing something.

my capitalized abuse didn't provoke these reactions but your thoughts can..

We are so much harder on ourselves than anyone else would be. I will reject myself before I give you a chance to do it. Feeling incredibly endarkened right now. I've always been good at distracting myself when feeling shitty. Wondering if it is more beneficial to hang in there with the darkness, given that I can't seem to see my way through it? I don't even feel like distraction. I am going to teach a class in a couple of hours. That usually makes me feel peaceful and OK.

Thank you.
Love,
Leela

[Birdie]

This morning, this was in my inbox:
Life's water flows from darkness.
Search the darkness, don't run from it.
Night travelers are full of light,
and you are, too; don't leave this companionship.
~ Rumi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Leela,

what is received through the senses is not necessarily real.

It is an interpretation from the perspective of Leela.
Let's lose the word "real". It means different things to everybody. i like the word "actual" in it's place.
Your interpretation is actual. It is unique to you.

The senses seem to be the place to go to get out of the head.

Yes, this is a good technique to shut down over thinking.
If we consider that feelings/emotions are sensation plus thought stories, then if they are overwhelming it is an excellent way to calm them by concentrating on the sensations alone.

There is the illusion of Doing this, writing this. It sure seems real.

Of course it does. You've been conditioned to see things this way. ..and the writing was actual. It's just that it happened. It wasn't done by anybody. It wasn't done at all. It happened.
We need to 'go back' a little to investigate this.
The notion of doing is just that, a notion. It's a concept that covers the arising of intention followed by an outcome that is a reflection of that intention.
So, let's start with the intention. No, wait. Let's start with thoughts.
Do you know what your next thought will be?
Can you control your thoughts? Here's a test. Don't think of a Zebra.
Were you able not to imagine a Zebra?
Why do particular thoughts happen? It's triggers.
Circumstances trigger thoughts to arise. Watch this in real life.
You see a glass and thinking of drinking happens. etc.
So circumstances stimulate a thought of doing something (an intention) then without conscious awareness you move towards fulfilling that intention. (or resist it - same thing)
If everything lines up and the intention gets fulfilled, you imagine that you did it and the illusion of DOing is strengthened.
'm inviting you to witness things happening with or without force.
When you were writing, I'll bet that you didn't think of how to form many of the words, yet it still happened. Of course, afterward you would say "I did that...", but really writing just happened.

I can work on clearing these beliefs

They don't need to be cleared. i imagine that you see that as a child your naive perspective took them to heart in a way that shaped your life, but now you see them from an adult perspective, even an awake adult that recognized them as inappropriate for now. Is this accurate?
We don't need to examine each one and kill it. We can sweep up the whole lot and bin them in one go. If you feel that any one in particular cling to today's Leela, we can deal with it.

I will reject myself before I give you a chance to do it.

Ha, yes. The self is indeed a suit of armour.

Feeling incredibly endarkened right now.

This is a good opportunity to investigate what is actually happening. To recognize triggers.
Love the Rumi quote. He recognized opportunity.

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince.
Looks like I forgot to hit 'send' two days in a row, and have lost my post. So, starting over.... It seems that the person who wrote the last post is no longer here. (It always seems that way.) So probably different answers.

And, yes, right away, as I'm sitting on the porch writing, my neighbor's cat is hunting birds in the wildlife corridor right next to me. The shrubbery is dense, and I could not see where she went as I tried to spray her with water. It feels different from my upset of a year ago. I don't know how to describe the difference. As I think about it and tell stories and get worked up, it is just the same old familiar anger. And, they are stories. I'm attempting to feel what's there, a warm feeling in the chest and throat. It is changing. Less heat in throat, still warm in chest. Can I let it be sensation without interpretation? Wanting to practice what to say to owners when they show up, but that is more story telling, and trying to let that go. I don't expect the, now mild, sensation in the chest to go away. A little in the throat. Few minutes later: still sensations. Story, let go, story, let go. Sensing warm feeling chest and throat. Sorry to be sending you this, Vince. So will cut this part short.

I guess it is about control. Wishing I had any. I do not have control. Nothing can be done. Birds will be killed. I seem to remember Christiane say that wanting to protect animals is a barrier. It is fuzzy in memory. I imagine it is something like, 'who am I to say those birds should not die?' ....Feeling a little calmer.

This is one of those times when I was feeling peaceful, then, BAM! Something presents itself to rile things up. Seems to happen if I get too comfortable.

Real vs. Actual.It is obvious that my way of interpreting what I sense is different from someone else. So my sense information is Actual, not real. Yes, my interpretation can change on a dime.

It wasn't done by anybody. It wasn't done at all. It happened.

Sometimes this makes perfect sense. Sometimes it doesn't. When things happen without effort, they just seem to happen. Once effort enters the picture, it seems like someone is 'doing.'

Can you control your thoughts?

I know I don't control the thoughts that come in. Otherwise, I would not think many of them. However, a thought will say to let go of an unhelpful thought, and something steps back from it. What zooms in and out?

I notice that I feel better, now. Not focusing on the sensations for a little while, and they seem to be mostly gone.

Beliefs: the usual suspects, unworthy, unloveable, there must be something wrong with me (shame). I do work on them weekly, hoping that if I acknowledge them enough, see that they are lurking, they will get bored and shrink away. Or I will just be quicker to notice them at play when I get triggered. Is there a belief about the cat situation? People just don't give a shit. They do not care about anything that isn't 'me & mine.' I feel sad when I say that to myself. Probably not true. And there is an energetic feel in the heart area. A heaviness. It is a story with emotional strings. It does not serve this intention to see through self.

Love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Leela,

I guess it is about control. Wishing I had any. I do not have control.

Knowing this is critical. The suffering when watching others (including animals) in pain will likely reduce to be replaced by the body sensation of sadness. This can be bitter sweet.

This is one of those times when I was feeling peaceful, then, BAM! Something presents itself to rile things up. Seems to happen if I get too comfortable.

yes, when comfortable the filters drop. This will exhaust itself as we work through what emerges.

Sometimes this makes perfect sense. Sometimes it doesn't. When things happen without effort, they just seem to happen. Once effort enters the picture, it seems like someone is 'doing.'

When it seems like someone is doing, is it seen as an illusion or is it taken as actual?

However, a thought will say to let go of an unhelpful thought, and something steps back from it. What zooms in and out?

Nothing. There is zooming. That is all. ..but the stepping back is a lead into selfing. It is a protective response.
Next time that happens, see if you can separate the sensation from the story that is attached.

I do work on them weekly,

No need to work on them. Acutally, what we resist we make stronger.
Simply acknowledge them and give them some love as you tell them that they are not needed.

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince.

When it seems like someone is doing, is it seen as an illusion or is it taken as actual?

So today I was struggling to get the lid off an irrigation valve hole in the hot sun, without an appropriate tool. It was difficult, but mercifully short. I just didn't think about whether or not someone was seen as 'doing' it. Planning and teaching class this evening: I had a strong preference to look at your post and reply, but had to get ready for class. It was not really a struggle, though. Did not think about a doer. Most of the time, I don't think about it. So I guess that is where to put attention.

Next time that happens, see if you can separate the sensation from the story that is attached.

yes. this is something I have been working with when I can remember.

love,
Leela

[vinceschubert]

Hi Leela,

this is something I have been working with when I can remember.

which is more accurate? "when I can remember" or when remembering happens.
Now consider this; is remembering just a thought arising that has reference to a previous thought?
What part did intention play in the remembering?
Is there a feeling of achievement or failure if it happens or not? (answer from experience - not intellect)

So I guess that is where to put attention.

So does attention get directed or does it just land on something?

with love

vince

[Birdie]

Hi, Vince.

which is more accurate? "when I can remember" or when remembering happens.

When remembering happens would be more accurate.

is remembering just a thought arising that has reference to a previous thought?

Yes, that sounds true. I had not considered it before. It could be a memory that pops in that is remembered, or there could be a desire to remember (someone's name).

What part did intention play in the remembering?

Intention seems to point to a future, which does not exist, so intention is also a thought pointing to a thought. If something was intentionally done, it seems to point to a someone who intentionally did it. How could this not be true? Leela is doing this activity with an intention to wake up. There is typing, thinking, and holding an open space for the thoughts to appear. There is an intentionality to the space. Unlike when the thought-stream is just pumping shit out. The intentionality has a creativity and allowing to it.

Is there a feeling of achievement or failure if it happens or not? (answer from experience - not intellect)

Yesterday I forgot to turn on the irrigation water early in the morning, as I intended. There was a bit of irritation, but I didn't beat myself up -- I did turn it on, just later than I think is best. Last Tuesday, when I remembered to do it early, there was a sense of relief/achievement, because I was worried I would forget.

So does attention get directed or does it just land on something?

In my experience, it is easier to feel that physical energy is directed more than mental energy. With choreography, there is an intention to perform a particular movement at a particular place in the music. However, walking could be just a meander happening. It makes more sense that there is a desired direction, then the walking happens. However, if I want a drink of water, the body may be moving to the faucet before the thought is fully formed. Attention, as in mental energy, just lands on whatever.
with love,
Leela