Almost there

[NoSpoon]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I is just a word. We use this word describing actions and thoughts of our bodies so often, that we end up believing that there is an actual entity “I” who thinks, moves etc.

What are you looking for at LU?
I understand the concept of no self, but i still find something inside still clinging on to it. I need a push to help me let go completely. I just want to get out of this midway stage where i get moments of clarity followed by hours of back at being a separate self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
That last push to help me get from understanding to letting it go is what im seeking. When it comes to expectations, i dont really expect anything. The curiosity comes, the impuls to follow the rabbit hole follows, it comes in many forms and this is just one of those. If it leads somewhere - great. If it turns out to be another dead end - great as well.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Psychedelics, meditation, mindfulness books, deep looking book, conversations with other seekers.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Bluejay]

Hi NoSpoon (Is that what I should call you)?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

You can call me Bluejay or Henri.

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

[NoSpoon]

Hello Henri,

Thanks for the reply.

You can call me Oliver.

1. How will life change?

I don't know how life will change. I don't have a precise vision on that. I have read convos with other people on this forum and what I see from that is people reporting clarity, calmness of mind, simplicity of things and disassociation from the 'thinker' inside. When I get to deep states of meditation and the mind becomes calm, the life coming in through the senses is breath taking and overwhelmingly serene. My best guess is that this will continue outside of meditation once the illusion of the 'thinker' dissolves.

2. How will you change?

Again, I have no real answer to this question neither. I just feel that outside of meditation the 'Thinker' is very strong and the illusions it creates makes it difficult to see life for what it really is. If one really lives the idea of no self, it seems to me that all things in life should become clearer, without the distortion coming from the self.

3. What will be different?

I imagine that everything would be the same and the only thing that would change is my ability to see things for what they really are, without the tricks and distortion of the lens of the 'thinker'.

4. What is missing?

Ability to see through the illusion is what is missing and why I am here. I read a lot of books and had a lot of close experiences of no self, however, these only come when the mind is quiet. As soon as things happen that require communication with other people, the sense of self comes back as powerful as ever. Instead of things just happening, a strong feeling comes that I am the one who things happen to, even though I already see clearly that I am not the one doing things.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,
Oliver

[Bluejay]

Thanks for the answers, Oliver!

Your expectations seem reasonable. Only thing to pay attention to is that you don't live no-self, as that would 'thingify' it.

Just like there's not a No-Santa walking around in the world, so there is not a no-self. It's simply an absence of something. You probably already know, but I thought I'd mention it.

Check out the below two videos, you might find them helpful:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

And then answer this question:

What comes up when I say there is no inherent self -- no witness, no doer, no controller, no independent self in charge of life?

Enjoy :)

[NoSpoon]

The videos were right on point. It feels like they describe the back and forth that is happening with me very well. The only part where I felt resistance was when it said that I should not try to rush it, but give it time. It summoned the feeling of fear that if I stop chasing, everything will just go back to what it was and all the progress will disappear. Also, it was not very clear to me how to go about investigating my core beliefs. How do I even know what core beliefs mean or are. Everything feels very fragile at this point and all these ideas of no self, the thinker that lives inside my body or even the fact that I like ice cream seem very empty, built on sand. What does it mean to like ice cream? I hate the way I feel after I eat a whole bunch, but the next day I still want it. I begin to doubt if any of that is true at all or are all these just ideas that others or my own mind created out of thin air.

What comes up when I say there is no inherent self -- no witness, no doer, no controller, no independent self in charge of life?

A sense of freedom. A feeling of huge weight falling of my shoulders. I no longer have to try and predict the future to be able to control things better. Everything happens on it's own. Life plays out on it's own. The problems come on their own and resolve themselves on their own. A sense of relief. Moments later the feeling of being fooled follows. Or is it another thought? It seems that I can physically feel the 'I' inside who experiences everything that comes through the senses of the body. I try to look deeper. Where is that feeling, what does it feel like etc. I can not point to it or describe it. All I know is it is there. When I look even deeper, I lose the clear boundaries between the feelings and the thoughts. Do I really physically feel the 'I' inside or is it just how thinking feels? The difference is not very clear. Your analogy of Santa comes to mind next followed by a memory from my childhood: When I was first told there is no Santa, I did not believe it. My friend, who told me this argued that I should think for myself and stop listening to what my parents say. It's not possible that some old dude can fly around the world and visit all the children in such a short time frame. It's not possible for deer to fly neither. In my mind my friend's story made sense, but deep inside the belief was still there. When it comes to the idea of no self it is very very similar. Almost identical.

Next thing that comes up is a feeling that if I can't understand myself, surely there is no way for others to understand all of this neither. Am I just wasting your time? Am I 'not ready'? Or maybe I'm just tired. :)

At this point I just want all this confusion to stop, so I'm going to quiet my mind and meditate.

Good night Henri!

Regards,
Oliver

[Bluejay]

The only part where I felt resistance was when it said that I should not try to rush it, but give it time. It summoned the feeling of fear that if I stop chasing, everything will just go back to what it was and all the progress will disappear.

This reminds me of a quote from Ramana Maharshi: "Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent."

To illustrate this, look into how you began on this path. What was the catalyst? Keep going back in time. Did you start this process of self-exploration? Did you decide that your personality would resonate with this? Did you orchestrate the events that moved you along this path to reading this forum post?

We'll likely look deeper at this as we move forward, but wanted to leave you with some questions to explore.

Everything feels very fragile at this point and all these ideas of no self, the thinker that lives inside my body or even the fact that I like ice cream seem very empty, built on sand. What does it mean to like ice cream? I hate the way I feel after I eat a whole bunch, but the next day I still want it. I begin to doubt if any of that is true at all or are all these just ideas that others or my own mind created out of thin air.

Eating a bunch of ice cream is a reaction that comes from avoiding feeling something. It is the work that is often done after realizing there is no inherent self.

Feeling like everything is empty, built on sand is very normal for this process. Nothing to worry about.

Next thing that comes up is a feeling that if I can't understand myself, surely there is no way for others to understand all of this neither. Am I just wasting your time? Am I 'not ready'?

Isn't it interesting how thoughts create a boundary between I and myself and say "I can't understand myself." Thoughts create 'I', 'myself' and even what it means to 'understand'. :)

Now...

Let's start running through some exercises to make sure we're on the same page.

Here's the Socks Exercise:

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

- You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Enjoy!

[NoSpoon]

The next day after my last post I woke up in a state I have never been in before. The first time ever the mind was completely silent even without meditation or psychedelic substances. The whole body was pulsing with massive amounts of energy, wave after wave after wave. The sounds and visuals added on top of it making the whole experience even more intense. I did not at any point felt the sense of no self, but I did not feel a sense of self either. Guess I just stopped thinking at all. Even the idea of thinking seemed impossible as there just was no space or time for that. To be honest I didn't even feel the need to analyse or describe it to someone. The whole concept of analysing seemed stupid and empty. Everything just felt right as it was. I know you said I should post at least every 48 hours, but I hope you can understand why I didn't. :)

The same thing continued for a total of 2 days. On the 3rd day I woke up to a ringing phone with the person on the other end informing me there was some urgent business I needed to take care of. Confused and half asleep I went straight to solving the issue which ended up in a full day of intense thinking. The mind didn't go back to being silent since. When I try to, I can instantly go back to a similar state, but it no longer feels so intense and therefore the mind often finds space to creep in and steal my attention without even noticing the shift back to the imaginary world of thought.

Basically things are almost back to normal, but there is a very subtle difference in that it no longer feels like I need to understand any new concepts or learn to look at things in a different way (like it felt before). I no longer feel like chasing or missing something. I would love to go back to that state again when I remember it, but I no longer feel desperate.

Do you think we should analyse it or work on things more? I'm still not sure what happened. :)

[Bluejay]

You missed the previous exercise on what color your socks are, so go back and look at it before continuing to the next exercise in this post. It should take you just a minute or so to do it.

I did not at any point felt the sense of no self, but I did not feel a sense of self either. Guess I just stopped thinking at all. Even the idea of thinking seemed impossible as there just was no space or time for that. To be honest I didn't even feel the need to analyse or describe it to someone. The whole concept of analysing seemed stupid and empty. Everything just felt right as it was. I know you said I should post at least every 48 hours, but I hope you can understand why I didn't. :)

I understand :)

The sense of self is created in thought, so your thinking stopped, then the self creation process stopped. As you also noticed, there is not a no-self instead of self. It's just an absence of self. Or rather, the illusion of self vanishes.

When I try to, I can instantly go back to a similar state, but it no longer feels so intense and therefore the mind often finds space to creep in and steal my attention without even noticing the shift back to the imaginary world of thought.

Nothing to worry about. The body/mind seems to strive to maintain a balance so nothing is too intense. This is often why any experience, when it becomes normal, tends to fade.

Do you think we should analyse it or work on things more? I'm still not sure what happened. :)

No need to analyze. Just enjoy it.

We'll keep moving forward and see what happens. What happened is all helpful for our inquiry here, so it's good stuff. Now let's channel it into seeing through self, shall we?

Here's the next exercise:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?
- Does a thought control it?
- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Enjoy! :)

[NoSpoon]

You missed the previous exercise on what color your socks are

In both cases whether I'm looking or trying to remember there's a feeling of knowing. The only difference is that the source of knowing comes from a different source (memory or direct experience). When I try the exercise a few times in a row, there is a clear difference between the two. When trying to remember, there's a feeling of thinking, similar to that of playing chess. When I turn around and look, the feeling of thinking is gone and the answer comes to me instead in a form of visual experience. It almost feels like a can feel the gap between the two experiences.

Palm Flipping Exercise

- How is the movement controlled?

The hand is just turning by itself. There is no one that controls it.

- Does a thought control it?

At the time of the exercise the mind is very quiet. No thoughts at all.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

If I just look, it is clear that the action just comes on it's own. I can not find a decision by looking because it is not tangible. It can not be smelled, tasted, seen or heard. If I start looking for the decision, thoughts start coming again explaining how the process works and where the decision can be found.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Same as previous question. Can not find the 'who' or the 'what' by just looking. The answer only comes in a form of thoughts.

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Same answer again. Can not find anything by looking. The only thing that my senses show me is the hand turning up and down. Thoughts come that have a very good explanation on how this works, but no answer comes in a form of senses.

[Bluejay]

Okay, very good :)

Next exercise:

Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Enjoy! :)

[NoSpoon]

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The brain has information on both types of drinks, in my case water and coke. The eyes see the task that you wrote, the visuals go to the brain automatically, the brain then processes the task automatically and pulls out from it's database everything that is relevant for the question. The brain then produces the answer in a form of thoughts. It is very clear to me that there is no separate self involved in this process, no doer or thinker. Everything happens on autopilot. However, it feels likes there is a separate self that witnesses all this process without having any control over it. This idea is reinforced by the fact that there are no words in my head talking about the self that I feel and therefore it can not be a thought. This was the main reason I signed up on this forum because I believed that this means that I still feel the 'self' all the time.

Now it is more clear that if I can not see, taste, hear or touch that separate self, then it's just another thought, not a sense. I don't feel there is a self, I think it. Just recently have I started to understand that thoughts don't always come in a form of words. They can come as a sense with a label. To me this is very revolutionary and I thank you for that. It is still very new and it takes time to recalibrate my view on things, but it is a true game changer for me.

I will provide the rest of the answers from what I see by looking and not by thinking.

I did not choose anything. The choices present themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

The preferences did take the back seat. As soon as the counting started, the tension was gone from the brain as if it stopped thinking. Everything happened on it's own. There was no chooser here.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I did not directly experience the mental function of choosing, but it does feel like I do directly experience the mental action of thinking about the traits of the drinks. The experience comes in a form of tension in the head. I feel it the same way as I a feel having a headache.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

An impulse came and my hand picked up the glass of water. It happened instantly. Very similar to washing dishes. Hands do it on their own. I don't even have to look at them or pay attention to the process. No doer or chooser here.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Turning on my brain to answer this. :) It does not feel like there is an 'I' that does the choosing, but it does feel like there is and 'I' observing the actions of the body that the 'I' has no control over. At this point if I just remember what senses really are and go through the list of questions 'can I see the 'I' that I feel? Can I touch it? Can I smell it? Can I truly feel it physically? All the answers come negative and the feeling of 'I' that observes things starts melting. It becomes clear that it was never a feeling, but just another thought/belief that pretends to be a feeling.

[Bluejay]

Now it is more clear that if I can not see, taste, hear or touch that separate self, then it's just another thought, not a sense. I don't feel there is a self, I think it. Just recently have I started to understand that thoughts don't always come in a form of words. They can come as a sense with a label. To me this is very revolutionary and I thank you for that. It is still very new and it takes time to recalibrate my view on things, but it is a true game changer for me.

This is a profound insight. Very nice.

Yes, there are some very subtle thoughts that then get bundled up with sensations, such as labels, subtle images of location/body, and so on.

All the answers come negative and the feeling of 'I' that observes things starts melting. It becomes clear that it was never a feeling, but just another thought/belief that pretends to be a feeling.

Yes. Excellent. And remember in the beginning when I posted those two videos about this process flip-flopping. It goes back and forth between seeing and 'not seeing'. We are so conditioned to take the self as real that it can still try to run even after seeing through the self illusion (similar to an old computer program that refuses to uninstall).

Now, let's move on to an exercise that will not only be helpful here, but for the rest of your life:

Truth Lie Exercise

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day and don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes, there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering.

However, at that moment, let’s say you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat and you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it doesn’t matter how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind of lie.

As we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are tricked.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

Being aware of contractions in your body is also good for noticing what to investigate as you go about your day.

You want to be in touch with body sensations and able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of someone lying and notice what sensations arise as you listen.

Please report back what body sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, and so on.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body sensation, not the sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

[Bluejay]

Hey Oliver,

How are things going? Are you still interested in being guided here?

[NoSpoon]

Hey Henri,

Got the flue, so been out for a few days now. I will try to reply as well as I can.

Please report back what body sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, and so on.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body sensation, not the sensation itself, for example.

I'm not sure I understand this and therefore would like to clarify. So the way I see it, physically, there is just vision, hearing, tasting, smelling and bodily sensations. I can tell you that I taste a taste, but when I try to describe it with words (sour, salty, sweet etc) the sensation becomes labelled and no longer pure or directly experienced. In my view the same applies for the bodily sensations that you gave as examples: To say that the body is heavy or light is just another labelling process. I just feel bodily sensations that are ever changing. I do not understand how looking at vibrations within and interpreting them as peaceful or sad are any different from saying that my body is heavy or light, contracting or expanding. How is that not interpretation too? Where do you draw the line and how do you differentiate between just feeling and labelling?

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

When I look just using DE, all I feel is vibrations all over. Also feels like I can feel my blood running through my body (but I don't count that as a DE, because I can't really tell if the feeling is true or just interpretation of the mind). When I just look, the vibrations are spread evenly throughout the body and when I tell a lie, the vibrations seem to become way more intense in the head, neck and shoulders.

Thanks.

[Bluejay]

I do not understand how looking at vibrations within and interpreting them as peaceful or sad are any different from saying that my body is heavy or light, contracting or expanding. How is that not interpretation too? Where do you draw the line and how do you differentiate between just feeling and labelling?

Good questions!

So we can go to the 'pure' DE level and say it's all sensations. When we do that, it's all just as you said, it's just doing its thing.

But we also live in the relative world. So this exercise is really about pointing you to the fact that your body responds to what it feels is healthy/good for it, and moves away from that which isn't good for it.

So yes, this is interpreting, but when 'we' are living life, that automatically happens. And remember, when we are using words, we are using concepts that do not inherently have meaning, like the self. But they can help in awakening something within.

A good example might be to look at how your body responded to making an account here at Liberation Unleashed. Did it feel a certain way in the body (if you can remember)?

To help you get a sense for this, and maybe finding your own answer, pay attention during the coming day or two to how your body lives life.

Do you notice being drawn to some things and not others?

What is the experience like (without the mind interfering)?

When I just look, the vibrations are spread evenly throughout the body and when I tell a lie, the vibrations seem to become way more intense in the head, neck and shoulders.

The main purpose of this exercise is to increase awareness of the difference between yes and no in the body, which will be helpful after seeing that there is no inherent self, because things can get confusing at times, as you may already have noticed.

So would you say that in the first instance the vibrations are harmonious, and in the second instance they are more discordant (head, neck and shoulders)?

Do let me know if you have more questions.

Hope you get better :)