Hopeful for liberation

[jms2]

Hi Pablo,
My last response was a little confusing my bad! I’ll try again.

Please explain. What is this "self" that is conditioning and continues?
I honestly do not understand what you are saying.
Can you explain as completely as possible so that I can?

I just meant to say that it seemed like the illusion of the doer is a product of some kind of conditioning and that to see through the illusion requires some kind of unconditioning. What you wrote about the body/ mind still making mistakes and just trusting in life reminded me of the body/ mind conditioning and therefore I understood the body/ mind is continuously unconditioned in this surrender/ trusting life. Hopefully this makes more sense!

Same thing. What do you mean by awareness? What do you mean by "real" (or not real).

I meant seeing through the illusion of self doesn’t mean that the body/ mind behaviors or thoughts will change right away, maybe just the experience of them. By awareness I just meant knowing. By not real I meant when the body/ mind is assumed to be under the control of a separate actor/ character in the world. So real is seeing the unreality of this.

Best,
Soley

[pozablo]

Thanks for that, Soley.

I think we're on the same page, and it's just a matter of definitions.

I'm wondering how you are defining "conditioning" and "real".

Also...is not an inaccurate interpretation or belief still a "real" event ?

Can you point to any "thing" that is not simply an impermanent event of the entirety of nature?

[jms2]

Hi there!

I'm wondering how you are defining "conditioning" and "real".

I guess when I say conditioning I mean the way we learn to do things, think things, feel things, etc.

Also...is not an inaccurate interpretation or belief still a "real" event ?

Can you point to any "thing" that is not simply an impermanent event of the entirety of nature?

I wrote before

By not real I meant when the body/ mind is assumed to be under the control of a separate actor/ character in the world. So real is seeing the unreality of this.

What I said before talked about "real" being the liberation of the self and seeing the reality of what is here now. This idea doesn't seem to hold up well because I was defining real by experience, but there is nothing that makes one experience more real than another. Now it feels like there is nothing supporting the possibility of "real" events being different from "illusory" events... they seem like the same thing.

Can you point to any "thing" that is not simply an impermanent event of the entirety of nature?

No!

Best,
Soley

[pozablo]

Thanks for that.

Now it feels like there is nothing supporting the possibility of "real" events being different from "illusory" events... they seem like the same thing.

Agreed. Fortunately (especially without all the noise and confusion of Self and defense of some Identity) our brains do seem to learn where to and not to put our fingers :-)

I'd love to hear more about the quality of your peace of mind and acceptance and/or anything else that seems to you to be relevant to our conversation.

In any event, when you have questions, I'll be here.

/p

[jms2]

Hi Pablo!

My peace of mind has been really nice, especially for the past several weeks. I have been having some health issues for over 3 weeks now and was finishing up work on a long research project I have been working all year on along with some other minor school related projects. It blows my mind a bit how "just fine" everything was despite the situation being what it was. It comes to mind since I finished and submitted my thesis today. It felt like I just knew everything would be okay regardless of what happened and I didn't even need to think about why. There was no significant rumination/ worry at all. Or no reason to think about it. Also, doing anything work related is just easier in general and when I don't work there is less or maybe even no guilt attached to it. It seems like things are just flowing naturally. In general, the past few weeks have been a revelation to what can be done without worrying about some imagined events haha

Now, still somehow there is doubt that any significant shift has happened. Sometimes the doubt isn't there, but usually it is and seeking happens. For example, when doing some type of self-inquiry and I am looking for the self, I end up in the thoughtless space and then my perception seems like its both inside/ outside (indistinguishable or the same thing) or just oneness/ the present moment/ no manager. BUT then self referential thoughts try to explain it and make it an experience and the seeker energy sneaks up on me and then I believe I'm the seeker. These glimpses only last a moment. Well I guess I want to say that I feel like there is no way I could ever believe in a manager/ separate actor ever again (when brought to attention), but the habits keep going and the thoughts still refer to a separate person which is not always believed, but deconstructing - even recognising the seeker identity is usually hit or miss.

Anyways, this doubt feels like it should be a joke but it's not. I think I already know that I need to let go, stop seeking, so should I just wait for the body/ mind to do it? I may be reaching the end of my rope anyways with seeking. I sense some feeling of agitation when reading/ seeking like it seems fruitless at this point but the body/ mind keeps doing it. Maybe we can talk on zoom/ skype sometime next week? I am located in the GMT time zone.

Best,
Soley

[pozablo]

Ha, Soley, I love it.

And always nice to hear from you.

I'm 4 hours earlier than you, and often flexible with a couple days notice.
Are there some predictable times when you will/won't be available for a skype?

p\/p

[pozablo]

Soley,
How are you now?
What is happening in your now experience right now?